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Mister Beacon Episode #108

Indoor Location Solutions for COVID Safety

August 25, 2020

Before COVID, ‘social distancing’ and contact tracing’ were not common household topics, but now we consider them daily....

They have been serious guiding principles reshaping how we conduct our lives in order to decrease our risk from the virus. The ability to manage social distancing can be key to businesses being able to operate or not. Addressing this need has changed the shape of many technology companies’ offerings. This week we are thrilled to have Bruce Krulwich, of Grizzly Analytics, back on the Mr. Beacon Podcast in light of his most recent report, ’25 Indoor Location Solutions for Social Distancing and Contact Tracing’. Bruce highlights that there is a distinct difference in approach to Indoor Locationing in the COVID era: a shift from measuring the proximity of people to things, to measuring proximity between people. In this episode, we sift through the many different technologies in the indoor location space - like UWB, Bluetooth, Smartphones, and sound waves, to understand their strengths and weaknesses in terms of cost, battery, precision, and ease of use.


  • Narration 00:07

    The Mr. Beacon Podcast is sponsored by Wiliot, scaling IoT with battery free Bluetooth.

    Steve Statler 00:17

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon Podcast. I am really delighted to see the return to our show of Bruce Krulwich, who is the chief analyst of Grizzly analytics. He's a veteran of this. IoT indoor location space. Bruce, welcome back to the show.

    Bruce Krulwich 00:39

    Great to be back on the show. Always great to talk to Steve.

    Steve Statler 00:41

    So I'm just going to do a bit of housekeeping. I don't normally do it. But I'm going to start off by thanking everyone that's watching the show. Most proper podcast has asked people to like, subscribe, share, I never do that. But I'm going to ask you to do that. Now. If you've been watching the show. We've had so much Amazing, loyal listeners. I love bumping into people that have seen the show. So please help to spread the word. But enough of that. Let's get back to why you're here, Bruce, you have just put out a very timely report on indoor location solutions for for COVID safety. It seems like the viruses turned everyone's business upside down. And the segment that we follow and analyze is nothing if not entrepreneurial, and so they're taking lemons, turning it into lemonade, and I don't know what you think, to what degree are people just kind of repackaging what they already had before to address this COVID safety need.

    Bruce Krulwich 01:51

    Clearly, some people are doing that somebody that has a company that has a solution that can locate people whenever they walk around, can take that same signal Lucian and repurpose it to track people's locations for COVID safety. But at the same time, there are some companies that are doing very innovative things, specifically with the aim of enforcing social distancing, for example. So there really are two primary applications for COVID. One is social distancing enforcement, where you want to make sure that two people aren't too close together. The other is contact tracing, which is going back after the fact and saying if john doe got infected, who was near him, and what's very interesting is that enforcing social distancing is a brand new area in the sense that measuring distance between two people never mattered before. Before you nobody would care if when I'm walking around a mall. I'm near my friend, john. They care if I'm near the chips or the pretzels or the iPhones or the Android phones, the proximity to things is important proximity to other people isn't. So all of a sudden, there is some new technologies coming out where if you can measure point to point between two people, all of a sudden that matters. And that's a really innovative aspect of COVID and COVID safety, which is coming to market.

    Steve Statler 03:24

    So all of this kind of indexes into this area of expertise that you've accumulated, and I've always appreciated that you look across different technologies, sound, ultra wideband, ble, light, there's probably some others that that I haven't thought of. So it is really interesting that these are being applied in a different way. Why are people not just using the famous API's that Apple and Google put out in In their, in their operating systems. Do you have a view on that?

    Bruce Krulwich 04:06

    Well, for one thing, I'm a big fan of those API's being out. There's a great example of companies doing something that people were a little bit concerned about a year ago. And all of a sudden, the fact that Apple and Google can do that is helping save lives. So I think that that's a great thing. What the solutions that are coming out, though, are taking that really one step further, and are wrapping, looking at how can you do? Can you not just see where one person is, but how can you see the proximity to other people to enforce social distancing? or How can you store location data, anonymously, presumed in some cases, and then track it back if somebody turns out to be infected? And those are really further developments on top of what Apple and Google can provide?

    Steve Statler 04:57

    Yeah, I agree with that. I have a Maybe a slightly more jaundiced view of what they've done. I on one hand, I feel like it's from the best of motives. And the fact that you see Apple and Google collaborating very effectively, is tremendous. I think that they they have admirable motives to drive it. But what I've not seen as a lot of success in using those API's, the UK they had an app that was going to use that, and that seems to have been a damp squib. It's it's not really appeared. And when I've tried to find apps that are actually using the API, they're very few and far between. I couldn't find any that will help us in California, which is, you know, the state was bigger than most countries. And you know what I am, if I'm even more negative, what I'm seeing is a level of design, which was really Putting battery life before human life, the system that they're using, they're using this region monitoring primitive to, which is kind of a very efficient way of saying roughly Am I close is my phone close to your phone as opposed to the ranging, which is very much more battery intensive that kind of generally runs in the foreground. And because it's constantly measuring received signal strength, it's going to chew up your battery somewhat. And so what we've got is a very efficient mechanism that tells you if you're roughly close to someone else, but knowing that you're roughly close to someone else, is almost worse than useless. Because it generates a huge number of false positives. And it's really hard to differentiate what is a negative contact or not, and I think it could have been done differently. And I think they've really over indexed on the privacy thing to the extent that they're not providing the data that is really needed by enterprises and governments to do the kind of work that needs to be done. That said, they got a tremendously difficult job, and they would have probably been absolutely secured. Ton what I'm advocating, which is put privacy to one side and sacrifice the battery. So I don't know if there's a good solution to that. But what it does tell me is that there's certainly a gap there that can be filled by other solutions. And I think that's what you've been analyzing. In your report. You mentioned that part of what people are looking at is proximity to each other. Are you far enough away from each other? Are people looking at proximity what you've touched? I know that's we're going off on a little bit of a tangent, but in the early days, it was a lot of concern about what people Touch. It seems like that's less of a concern now, is that what you're seeing? Are people not really addressing that use case?

    Bruce Krulwich 08:08

    I've seen the use case discussed in terms of using trip, tracking data to see where somebody has been, not only who they've been near, but where they've been. But I do agree that that's a much less discussed use case. My understanding I'm not at all a doctor, I'm not a MD, obviously, but um, my understanding is that that's seen now is less of a concern than proximity to other people. Yes, I have not seen much looking at that.

    Steve Statler 08:38

    Yeah, I think we're aligned there and you are a doctor on you. You're just not a medical.

    Bruce Krulwich 08:43

    I corrected myself a PhD in computer science, but not a medical doctor.

    Steve Statler 08:47

    Okay, so we know what the apps are trying to do. You've looked at over 20 of them. How do you pause the difference between them?

    Bruce Krulwich 08:58

    Well, there are some things hardware based. And that's simply a category in and of itself that are not based on smartphones, but are based on devices that are given out, they might be smartwatches that are that have a web chip that might be tags that are worn. They are many of them are based on your web technology, which can get much more accurate measurement of distance, which means you really can tell if somebody is six feet one inches or six feet five inches or, you know, five feet eight inches, and put that six foot boundary in a much more to the test in a much more accurate way. So those solutions can do a much more accurate job inherently. That's put it that's one category. The other category obviously is smartphone based solutions, where you have opt in by somebody installing an app, either for a site or a general COVID safety kind of app and then You can both monitor locations if you have the right infrastructure. And we'll get to that in a minute. And can measure less accurately, but hopefully still sufficiently accurately, the distance between two people running the app.

    Steve Statler 10:15

    So it seems like you have device based systems that are completely controlled by the hardware that's given to the employee, then you have people having to kind of bring your own device and then they load this app on. And then within that, what I'm hearing is there's two categories, which is one set of use cases where two phones are talking to each other. And the other one is where the phone is talking to some kind of infrastructure. Is that a fair summary of what you said? Yes,

    Bruce Krulwich 10:46

    that's exactly right. Basically, the infrastructure if you want to know where somebody is, I'm standing at this point in space. Generally, you need some infrastructure around you have to install beacons or location. devices. If you don't want to do that, which some people don't, then you can still measure proximity between different devices. You just don't know exactly where they are, you know, they're this far apart from each other, but you don't know exactly where they are.

    Steve Statler 11:15

    And it's the phone to phone kind of application, mainly using Bluetooth to see if these things Yes, yes. Bluetooth is the most common and what about the phone to infrastructure is what technologies are they using?

    Bruce Krulwich 11:32

    Generally, also Bluetooth or Wi Fi. Um, you know, as as you know, those are basically the radio technologies that phones have built in. As of now, there is some solutions that are trying to use sound waves, which is a different technology, which people are saying ultrasonic or subsonic sound, which has been around for a while and there are some companies that are getting very good results with it. And that's but that's another one Other options?

    Steve Statler 12:01

    Yeah, I'm interested in your view of that. Those audio based approaches, we actually have a show that's coming up where I'm going to be interviewing one of the vendors in that space. And I just haven't seen those solutions widely deployed. And I don't really understand why is

    Bruce Krulwich 12:20

    basically there's a lot of challenges involved in getting it to really work very accurately in the real world to work in a lab is not so hard to work when you've got noise, and you've got a lot of different kinds of noise in a background in a mall or in a factory. The two if two easy examples, then you have to be able to measure the subsonic or ultrasonic sound signals and differentiate them you have to tell you know, am I near this door or that door or whatever your whatever speed, sound emitter you're near, and you have to do so and ignore all the babies crying and people yelling in cars. Drive, you know, vehicles driving or whatever else. So it's a big challenge. On the other hand, when it can work, I've seen some very good accuracy coming out of it. And it's also cheaper because phones are made to be hearing sound and have microphones that take much less battery than radio transmitters and receivers.

    Steve Statler 13:20

    What are you saying in terms of accuracy across these solutions and how important is accuracy?

    Bruce Krulwich 13:29

    accuracy is obviously important. And I hesitate to comment on accuracy in the real details until I actually see it because as I said, what happens in a lab but what happens in the real world are often very different. But the you web approaches can do with a hardware can clearly get very high accuracy. Your web was designed from the ground up for accuracy and measurement, and they can get you down to 1520 centimeters of accuracy, which is very good for This or other purposes, when you're talking about Bluetooth, the accuracy in general is not as good. But companies are doing a putting a lot of effort into identifying how can you tell when someone is two meters or six feet apart, which is the COVID requirement. And many companies are saying that they have done that particular task. Not exactly where are you, but how far are two devices apart? And are they within or outside of six feet? And there are a number of companies saying they have that done very accurately.

    Steve Statler 14:40

    And what are the trade offs? So it seems like everyone should be using these ultra wideband devices Why? But I'm not sensing they have total domination, despite the fact that they're more accurate.

    Bruce Krulwich 14:56

    They're very accurate, but it means giving a tag or a device to me Everybody that you want to locate. So if you want to ensure safety in a shopping mall, it's a big task to give out a wearable device or a tag to everybody coming in, and then collect them more importantly, as they walk out, it will be a huge task. And and if you can do that, using smartphones, with an app that people opt into, and then you avoid you solve the privacy question, or in some cases, you can have the network the access points themselves monitor locations of every device in a look in a site. Then you can cover everybody with a smartphone, which is just about everybody these days without a problem. So that's the that's the trade off.

    Steve Statler 15:43

    And what about cost and battery life are they you know, in the old days ultra wideband was tremendously battery hungry and tremendously expensive. Is that changed.

    Bruce Krulwich 15:55

    They've got the battery life. They've got it down some they've got the battery usage down in you WP chips nowadays, but you clearly have to recharge the devices as you as you cycle them through a day. The hope is the claim is being made that the devices can last an entire day. And if they can do that they can be recharged at night or they can be charged between us.

    Steve Statler 16:17

    Whereas with the Bluetooth devices, the life is longer, I'm assuming

    Bruce Krulwich 16:22

    the life is much longer and all of us who carry smartphones around are used to our batteries going down anyway. So I think that the use of battery for one of these apps is no more than the use of battery from a lot of other apps using Google Maps or ways or the use of you know, Facebook also, you know, a lot of different apps do do a lot of things that can take battery life, and we used to it for better or worse.

    Steve Statler 16:50

    And then I you did you get a chance to look into the management of the privacy issues. What are the privacy issues with these different approaches

    Bruce Krulwich 17:01

    to privacy issues are obviously huge. If people if you want to be able to do contact tracing to take the extreme example. And you know, john doe gets infected, who was john doe close to, then you have to know that john where john doe was, and that's privacy invasive. So either people are going to be willing to opt in and trust the app or the company or the government, who is maintaining this data for the sake of COVID safety, or people aren't, and then contact tracing will be much harder, it will have to be much more limited. And that's a health versus privacy trade off that I think any two people will disagree on. Yeah, I'm, personally, I have no problem with my location being monitored by a government or a specific app. That's for this purpose. After all, Google and Apple have a lot of location history. data as well. And most people trust them with it because the benefits outweigh the concerns. In the case of COVID safety, I personally think the benefits way outweigh the concerns. But many people disagree.

    Steve Statler 18:12

    I agree. It's amazing how much disagreement there is. On this. It's very unfortunate, but hopefully, cooler minds will prevail. So we're not naming names here, because we want people to actually invest in your report, you've gone to the trouble of doing this analysis. But do you have any, you know, favorite approaches that you've seen? Are there particular kinds of implementations that you looked at? And you said, Oh, these this is a very strong offering. Other are other offerings that you looked at and set up. These guys were just panicking. They've, they kind of it's a knee jerk reaction and they're just trying to show their board that they're doing something that's wrong. relevant to the times?

    Bruce Krulwich 19:03

    Well, as I mentioned before, the the most innovative kind of approach which was not being done before COVID is proximity between two people. And that appeals to me for a number of reasons. One is it's new before COVID. Before SOS, the concept of social distancing was on all of our minds, you would never care to be monitoring how far apart two people are. So it is appeals to me because it's definitely built for this purpose, and it's custom made for a need. It also can be privacy friendly, if we can detect and issue an alert when two people are close, but not track the locations when they're further apart. And that's a for those people unlike me, who are more concerned about privacy. That's a very privacy friendly approach. The other approach that appeals to me a lot is a rarer approach. Approach more rare approach. And that is having network devices in your access points or in the network that are tracking to a lesser degree, the locations of every Wi Fi enabled device in the area. And this is obviously much better for COVID safety because it can track everybody. On the other hand, you have you cannot necessarily attract people's identities for contact tracing because of privacy issues and technical limitations of tracking identities without opt in, there are technical issues also, not just the legal issues. But if you can do that, if you can, you know, alert a store manager and say, send a guard over to this part of the mall because there are people there that are too close. We don't know who they are necessarily, and we're not tracking them. But there are too many people over there, go over there and break people up. Then I think the kinds of things you can do even with out, opting into an app really can ensure safety and a much better way.

    Steve Statler 21:06

    I guess the challenge there is like my wife and I go shopping together, less than we used to, but it's okay for us to be close together. But maybe not okay for me to be close to an old lady who's doing a shopping run that I don't know, and I don't know how you differentiate between those. I guess what you do is you can spot hotspots guy, you can say this, large clusters of people, maybe that's,

    Bruce Krulwich 21:34

    that's the main thing being done. I could speculate a bit and sit and think that malls could track for example, people that come in separately whether they're too close, but that also wouldn't be 100%. In the end, we're tracking hotspots that need to be monitored or need to be checked. And nothing's going to be 100%.

    Steve Statler 21:54

    Yeah, I like the pragmatism. I like the use of existing infrastructure, how accurate can These access point based systems B, is that not a bit of a trade off?

    Bruce Krulwich 22:05

    That's definitely a trade off. They can be accurate to within a few meters, but they cannot necessarily check. Are you six feet or two meters apart? Or are you not very, very reliable. But if they can be accurate within a few meters, and as you said, you're looking for hotspots, then if you find five people that appear to be within the same area plus or minus a couple of meters, you could at least send out a warning or have a guard walk over or whatever. And it would be enough for that use case.

    Steve Statler 22:37

    Well, it's a fascinating area I when the dust settles, it'll be really interesting to see who's been successful and who hasn't. It's very hard to tell you know, you we do these technical analyses and sometimes success is not just based on the technology, but one of the things that just from talking to you is really clear is there isn't one solution. For everyone, and so people need to understand right dimensions, you've outlined a lot of them there in the in the report. So that's very, very useful. How can people get this report?

    Bruce Krulwich 23:11

    They can go to Grizzly analytics.com, one word, and they can order it from there. They can click on a link for this report ordered straightaway

    Steve Statler 23:20

    have it right away. Very good. And it's like 99 bucks or something.

    Bruce Krulwich 23:23

    Yes, yeah. cheaply priced, because this is the kind of thing I think will appeal to a lot of people and I want to get it out there very easily.

    Steve Statler 23:31

    Yeah. And I think it's great. That a can help save lives. And also, I think it can be an accelerator for a lot of these technologies that will have business benefits after this. pandemic finally subsides. Before you go I do want to ask you about one thing that happened since we last spoke to over two years ago. You've been a fan of ultra wideband. I think it's true to say and deco wave have been the leading provider of the chips. There are many, many solutions. And decawave got bought you did a report on it. Can you just tell us a bit more about what happened and what the implications are? Sure.

    Bruce Krulwich 24:15

    I think the implications are potentially huge. Bottom line is that Apple has a way of leapfrogging technologies into use. And they decided they were going to have UW chips in the latest generation of iPhones. And they didn't use decawave ships actually initially, but the company Corvo decided they were going to acquire deco wave and put they are a leading supplier of chips to Apple and to a lot of other companies. And deco waves chip would be very appropriate for other kinds of devices, either other phones or because of the size differences in power. differences of decades chip, these could go into Apple Watches or other smartwatches or other IoT devices. So instead of only measuring using UW B in phones all of a sudden, if the same technology is available in smartwatches, wearable devices, cameras gimbals, anything else you want to put out there? Then the then the applicability becomes much, much greater. Very good.

    Steve Statler 25:30

    Yeah. It's incredible how Apple can act as this catalyst and make opportunities are for other people. So have you seen any results of that acquisition? Sometimes these things can be very disruptive, unintentionally, so

    Bruce Krulwich 25:48

    yes, no, no, I have I have not yet. Um, but I think that the potential is very big that when you think about you, it's actually very interesting when you're talking about the this In conjunction with discussion about the corona and the COVID arms, social distancing, that when people when Apple came out with you web and phones, there was a lot of speculation what would it be used for, because unless there are locator devices infrastructure, as we said before, on the walls, which there may be soon, then you web can measure distance between devices, but not necessarily exact location as you're walking around. But all of a sudden, with COVID awareness and the need for social distancing distance between devices, as we said a minute ago, all of a sudden has a lot of value. So if iPhones can now have distance measured much more accurately, using be using on your web, then could be done using Bluetooth. And if that evolves and other phone makers follow Apple's lead, and incorporate your web into the As phones, then all of a sudden distance measurement between devices which we now care about, even if we didn't six months ago, all of a sudden becomes very valuable and much more important.

    Steve Statler 27:11

    Do you think Apple is likely to leave that you web radio on all the time? Because one thing having the radio there is another thing having the operating system actually using it. And the nice thing about Bluetooth is iOS and Android are constantly referring to the Bluetooth radio they're looking for to see whether you've got a smartphone near a stereo or a car radio or you've just put a Bluetooth watch on so there's no even Tim Cook cannot ignore Bluetooth. He couldn't have an executive decision. Tell the guys that they're not going to do it. But you know, am I really going to be powering up the UW radio all the time?

    Bruce Krulwich 27:53

    I don't think so. This is obviously all very speculative and can change especially as you web rolls out. other devices, but my understanding is that people watching Apple API's are saying that there is a turn off and turn off API functionality that is is hinted to at least in Apple's releases.

    Steve Statler 28:17

    And if you see any evidence of UW B, being put into the bill of materials of these other high volume infrastructure devices, I'm thinking, obviously, I have an axe to grind here and I work for a Bluetooth company and I love ultra wideband. So I like them both, but I think it's the right tool for the right job. And it seems like what Bluetooth has on its side is this ubiquity. And I was really surprised when Bluetooth started appearing and Wi Fi access points, but it's now I would say ubiquitous. It's in all of the marquees it's in like three years of HP Aruba. access points have got blue In and you look at things like missed this kind of fighter contender that's really getting market share. And they have not just, you know, not just a regular Bluetooth antenna, they got segmented antennas and multiple radios and so forth. How long is it gonna take for ultra wideband to be in that kind of infrastructure?

    Bruce Krulwich 29:22

    I think it might take time simply because rolling out anything new takes time. But I do. I have heard that there's a lot of discussion happening with Network Access Point providers with your web folks. And I think the fact that Apple is going with you web and Corvo bought decawave. And it's clearly promoting that you web to their, to the people that they supply chips to is a good sign that that will be going forward. Obviously, I don't there's not but nothing is out yet. So I don't I can't say anymore.

    Steve Statler 29:57

    It is interesting and it's clear to me We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. You know, what can you use ultra wideband for now it's, you know, you can I can point my phone at your phone and we can exchange our, our contacts. I don't even know how many people really pay attention to those extra dots that are appearing when you do that. So I think we're all waiting for the UW B tags to come out from Apple. Do you think that's real? Do you think there's going to be an ultra wideband tracking tag from?

    Bruce Krulwich 30:28

    I think so obviously, the Apple is a very secretive and I don't like to speculate about Apple because there's no way to note right? They're very secretive company. But I do think that if they don't come out with it, somebody else will, because they're putting the chips in the phones. One thing which Apple does is they very often put out a technology similar to how when they innovated the App Store. They put a technology or capability and then leave it to third parties to fill in the gaps. So even if they don't come out with the tags, I think somebody else will. And I think we really are. The location space has been ready to go in getting out there for a while. But you web and iPhones and the COVID use cases that we're seeing right now. It really feels like a tipping point coming right now where the technologies are in place. The use cases are getting more serious. And I think it's I think we're going to see a lot of action in the upcoming six months.

    Steve Statler 31:33

    I think the only way you can sensibly plan is to think of scenarios because no one knows for sure what's going to happen. And even if you worked at Apple, sometimes people in Apple don't know what's going to happen. They seem to divide it up like cells where one group doesn't talk to another. But I, you know, my one of my favorite scenarios is that there's an apple tag that will actually be a hybrid. It'll have both UW Be an Bluetooth thin. And the reason that that makes sense to me is Bluetooth is always on, it's always going to always be on and, and phone makers hate spending power on anything that's absolutely essential because that's why they lose users, you know, you move. If you suddenly get convinced that Android has better battery life than iOS, you might actually make that shift. And so they'll love to give up battery life. So I think what makes sense to me is a tag that has a very low cost, Bluetooth Low Energy chip, and maybe one of these core low decawave chips in and I sense from my phone that I'm kind of near this tag. And that causes me to actually turn on the ultra wideband, and then when it matters, I can get that precision and then it seems to me you have kind of the best of both worlds you have always on. You have very battery efficient usage that's evolving. For many years, and you get the accuracy that comes with ultra wideband,

    Bruce Krulwich 33:04

    I happen to think you're right, we've seen that kind of approach being taken by the companies working in the lighting space. There's several companies working you alluded to it before, with a using LED lights with the phone's camera to track the location of the phone as it moves around from, you know, between different light bulbs literally. And one thing which those companies are doing is incorporating Bluetooth also, so that you can use Bluetooth when a phone's in a pocket or when you're not needing the accuracy. And when you want the accuracy and it's worth powering on the camera and sensing the light, the light, the LED light, the VLC, the encoded signals inside the lights, then you power that up. So to take the same approach with you wb makes a lot of sense.

    Steve Statler 33:55

    Yeah, and I love that visual light communication hybrid approach because VLC is so cool. You can not just get location but orientation. Which way am I pointing the phone? But let's face it, even though we use our phones a lot, majority of the time they're in your pocket. How do you get it out of a pocket? Well, you ping something on someone's watch, or you're literally your phone goes ping because it's seen a beacon, then you get the app in the foreground, then you have the phone out of the pocket and pointing in the right direction. I'd love to see more of that. I think that's a really ingenious combination that you are alluding to. Well, this has been excellent. It's Bruce, it's an honor to have you on the show. As I think I said last time I when I was writing the beacon technology, Hitchhiker's Guide to the beaker system. I did a lot of reading of your staff to try and get smarter about this space. So I always get a lot out of these conversations. Thanks for coming on the show.

    Bruce Krulwich 34:54

    My pleasure. I always love listening to your show, so I'm always happy to be on it.

    Steve Statler 35:05

    We have this crazy premise which you're headed off to Mars, and you have to choose three songs to listen to on the way to Mars. Are you? You're very musical Do you enjoy musical?

    Bruce Krulwich 35:22

    I am actually not very musical, but I definitely could say that if I was headed to Mars and had to pick three songs, none of them would have been recorded after 1980. You know, I was very young at the time, but if I had to pick three songs, they would most likely all be grateful dead. Maybe some Pink Floyd or, or, or other things from that time period. Interesting. Yeah.

    Steve Statler 35:51

    Yeah, I I'm trying to break out of the 80s myself, but it's tough. It's tough. There's all sorts of reasons. So I didn't put you down for Grateful Dead. Did you see them in concert or

    Bruce Krulwich 36:03

    I many years ago probably going going on 30 years ago 2030 years ago. I had a phase of time that during grad school that I went to a fair number of concerts in the northeast and then stop by slightly music. Alright. Northeast now I never really had the hair though.

    Steve Statler 36:24

    Not looking very Jerry Garcia them

    Bruce Krulwich 36:26


    Steve Statler 36:28

    Northeast of of the United States or northeast?

    Bruce Krulwich 36:33

    Yes. Okay. I was in college I grew up in DC was in college in Pittsburgh and then started grad school in New Haven, Connecticut. So that was during that time period is when I was going to see Grateful Dead shows in the area. I still still like the music but stuff

    Steve Statler 36:50

    after a couple years. And if you had to pick one song from the Grateful Dead, what would it be

    Bruce Krulwich 36:56

    a difficult one song on a whole trip to Mars. I'd be hearing it an awful lot of times. I guess probably touching gray.

    Steve Statler 37:02

    Okay, pretty cool. And what about Pink Floyd? What would you choose from there we, we we bought a turntable at the Williams office and so every time something good happens, we celebrate everyone gets to choose vinyl and we've got two Pink Floyd album stare so we should be here and the wall I think so what would you be into?

    Bruce Krulwich 37:25

    Probably dark side of the moon something I

    Steve Statler 37:27

    love the album. Yeah, very good. Well, thanks for sharing that with us.