Mister Beacon Episode #172

5G and IEEE 802.11 Standards Updates with Amichai Sanderovich

August 08, 2023

Today on Mr. Beacon we're joined once again by Amichai Sanderovich, the Standards Representative from Wiliot, to bring you the latest updates on Ambient IoT standards. We dive into the world of 3GPP release 19, also known as 5G Advanced, and its potential to revolutionize the IoT landscape.

In this episode, we explore the myriad benefits of bringing Ambient IoT to cellular networks. Imagine a world where medicine quality control is enhanced, drug doses and times are monitored with precision, and critical medical attention is provided promptly to patients in large high-rise buildings with better indoor tracking. The possibilities are endless across multiple industries. Discover the intricate negotiations that take place among tech giants like Apple and Google, as they fight for which features should be prioritized in the upcoming cellular standards.

But that's not all; we delve into another crucial standard—IEEE 802.11, popularly known as Wi-Fi. Learn how Wiliot tags leverage both 2.4 GHz and sub-GHz frequencies to gather data and draw energy for power. The art of "whispering" signals ensures that spaces are not overcrowded with interference, guaranteeing seamless communication between devices.

Join us as we unravel the secrets behind these cutting-edge standards and their potential impact on our lives. Whether you're a tech enthusiast or just curious about the future of IoT, this episode will leave you inspired and informed.


  • Steve Statler 00:00

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast. This week's episode is going to be an Ambien IoT standards update with Amichai Sanderovich, who is the director responsible for standards here at Willie, I got a chance to talk to him at our Caesarea office, which is in Israel, where a lot of the r&d is done on chip design and cloud platform. So it was great opportunity to check in with someone who's really tapped into some important work that will help Ambien IoT scale and be applied to solve some of the world's biggest problems. I hope you enjoy the discussion. And Mr. Beacon, ambient IoT podcast is sponsored by WM, bringing intelligence to every single thing. So I welcome back to the Mr. Beacon podcast,

    Amichai Sanderovich 01:01

    very pleased to be here again.

    Steve Statler 01:04

    So this podcast has found its way to focus on IoT on Ambien IoT, and you really are at the heart of this emerging field, you're with the arts representative, in standards groups, and you're working, you're very busy, I know you're spending a lot of time traveling and on calls with IEEE three GPP. And there's also you know, a lot of interest in what we're doing in other radio standards, including Bluetooth, which obviously has the advantage of being a technology that we're using today for our own implementation of Ambien IoT. But this work is about going way beyond without to harnessing the power of the enormous technology industry, some of the biggest companies in the world who operate in, you think about the companies that operate in the world of Wi Fi, the equipment makers in the telco industry, the network operators that have this personal relationship with almost every adult in the world. And they're the ones that potentially get bought into the Ambien IoT world that the rails of which get built on standards, and you're working on that. And, of course, you've been on the podcast before. So anyone that wants to kind of get the one on one on Ambia IoT standards can go back and listen to that. But I think what we should do in this discussion is do an update primarily. And you know, it's not like this work is done. But I think it's important. So it's very useful to have a sense of where we are at the moment. And, but we should also recap a little bit and explain the different standards activities, just you know, briefly. And then we can maybe talk about where it could go and the open questions. And the last thing to say before I hand over to you is is to acknowledge obviously, we're just one Actor in a Play with many parts. And in many ways we're dancing with with giants. That said, I think really, art has something to offer in the we have successful implementations that are being used by some of the largest companies in the world. And we're scaling to many millions of ambient IoT sensors. And so we have the benefit of learning about some things that don't work and some things that definitely do work. And so that's our, our contribution, but where this standards, journey ends up, obviously, nobody knows. But there's certainly a lot of momentum. So So tell me about that momentum. And just for those people that didn't watch the first podcast, maybe you can describe each of the main standards efforts. So first of all, three GPP not everyone's familiar with that standards bodies, so perhaps you can explain what that who they are and what they're working on.

    Amichai Sanderovich 04:23

    Yes. So we're Frigidly B is the standard which is responsible for the Celeron networks. A, it's the underlying technical standards that all deployments of cellular a rely on. So if we have 5g for example, and, and do we buy 5g from a Verizon, the technology behind that, that the deployment is written as a standout By the fridge EPP saw that any basically any vendor wishes to go into market and have a play can basically read this standard and implement it and frigid PP has been for a while it it was responsible for the 3g and 4g LTE, the 5g which was already rolled out and they now they are starting to discuss also the 60. So, usually they are not limited to the GS, the Fuji PP works on the releases, which are a final resolution cadence compared to the GS where you have few releases between each j generation. So, you can improve the features between and not just get the step response to the market.

    Steve Statler 06:02

    So, this Ambien IoT release will probably be many releases, I imagine it's not going to be one and done guess what is the name of the release and what is the name of the G the marketing name this may manifest itself in.

    Amichai Sanderovich 06:20

    So, there are currently discussions not clear yet whether it is solid enough to include as a main feature, or just as a study to prepare for next release. So, currently we are talking about release 19 which is do one and a half year two years from now. But two and a half years from now. A release 19 is called 5g advanced. So this is I think the brand name used brand name used for Billy slidin. And I think six g will be probably named for a release 21. Okay, so we have, let's say two releases mean releases. So it's not very hard, you know, sometimes it gets pushed earlier if market demands or push later and then releases are not fully synchronized. But this is the way for GPP arranges its walking process my religious

    Steve Statler 07:26

    so we have this standard coming to phone near you coming to cellular device in your your your car and many other devices that surround us. Courtesy of the apples, the Samsung's the 18 t's the Verizon is the oranges. What is what does this year so we have our conception of Ambien IoT, which has been formed by our kind of pragmatic desire to get postage stamp size compute devices on clothing or medicine. On all of the everyday things that so far have been offline, putting them online and unlocking the power of generative AI chat GPT cloud computing and applying it to the ordinary things that surround us. It's in a manner turning the lights on if we've been living our lives from a computing perspective with the lights off with flashlights and torches, we kind of get see things. This is a world where everything is online all of the time continuously in real time. That's sort of I guess how we see Ambien IoT, how in this world of standards, does the the standards group see Ambien IoT? How would they define Ambien IoT?

    Amichai Sanderovich 08:54

    It's a very good question actually. And usually each company has its own vision. But I think our vision is very similar to our vision is what everybody also thinks about so making each super cheap, way cheaper than the order of magnitudes cheaper than what's currently considered to be scelera.

    Steve Statler 09:18

    So small numbers of cents for connectivity as opposed to small hundreds of dollars for connectivity.

    Amichai Sanderovich 09:24

    I won't put the number right right now but they Yeah order of magnitude feel the fact that it's not just one order of magnitude Yes. And then of course supporting a non battery so you can charge for air and not rely on the internal battery which is also bad for the environment could potentially be bad for the environment and limit and the lifetime and require maintenance and they are expected to have a lot of them. So all the use case would the tour considered by the fridge EPP I'll also consider so we contributed the the supply chain use case where you are significantly reducing the waste for us or for food, from food supply chains, and improving quality and maybe even allowing foods that are currently and not possible without the tight control possible with the ambient IoT.

    Steve Statler 10:25

    So bringing the visibility to the cold chain, the food supply chain, yes, currently stuff gets harvested put on trucks delivered. And you know, we only have very manual occasional visibility of that. But this is transforming the food supply chain so that we have, we know, for every minute temperature and place of things and so I guess we can reduce wastes and have better tasting food that lasts longer. Yes. And so I think there's a lot of benefits to whether you're selling food or eating food, that pretty much impacts every human being in the world. And this could improve that.

    Amichai Sanderovich 11:10

    Significantly, I think most company sees the benefit. There were other companies that see benefit for MediCal. So being able to control medical supplies, medical and Drug Administration for better

    Steve Statler 11:28

    efficacy better. You know, I think no one knows literally, nobody knows how much of a problem there is, with people taking medicine, that doesn't work because it's been kept at the wrong temperature. And I'll sell too low.

    Amichai Sanderovich 11:47

    Sometimes people forget, and it can remind them and get tighter control for what's what's the drug administration going.

    Steve Statler 11:56

    Any other use cases that have been submitted that have captured people's imagination.

    Amichai Sanderovich 12:03

    So there was a submission about indoor location. Currently, all indoor locations are based on Wi Fi, which requires maintenance required to deploy access points which are connected to plug to electricity. A only for you know, being able to send this small poles just let you know where you are. For example, if you are in a skyscraper, and someone has a medical situation within the agency, you would like to direct the medical teams to exactly where he is, even if no one else is there to tell them well on floor. One, a one a one or two,

    Steve Statler 12:48

    absolute, this is an amazing I actually worked on this. Before joining William and I got very excited about this use case. And you know, in America, you dial 911, or the country, sometimes it's a different number, but you need help. If you're in a city, it's very hard to tell where you are. And maybe you're like, I'm here in Israel. And you know, most, there's a language gap. And so being able to overcome that, and allowing us to get help to people that need it. And knowing what floor what building what floor, what room

    Amichai Sanderovich 13:26

    is. So there is one suggestion to put stickers, which will don't require any batteries. And they laughed for forever, very low maintenance, very simple to anyone to deploy and just stick them and the phone. Once it's up, and you want to get very well you just can read out, read these information from these dogs. Without them. And then for the cloud, you can really estimate where you are in the phone. I

    Steve Statler 14:05

    am so glad to hear that. So this is new news to me. And this is, to me a very important use case.

    Amichai Sanderovich 14:12

    So great. It's something that really solves a hard problem.

    Steve Statler 14:20

    Because we feel like this should have been solved. But I think many of us who have used maps on our smartphone in our city know that there's just it's very challenging to get this right. Sometimes you can be out by a block so and then you think about these multi storey buildings and you know, there can be people who are really in serious trouble and they can't be helped. But this can solve that problem. Yes, yes.

    Amichai Sanderovich 14:46

    I think it's it's it's a very important contribution to solving very odd problem of indoor location. Yes. Yes, there are, of course additional use case for AGRICO I'll try, it will be able to, to smile and improve the agricultural process by tightly controlling or measuring all sorts of parameters like moisture or temperature per plant or an animal. Yes, they have a big farm or you have a very big field in there.

    Steve Statler 15:30

    And that's important as well, if we if we think about climate change, whilst we speak, the whole world's facing record temperatures, and people are dying, and certainly in distress. And so I think the food is one of the biggest food productions one of the biggest sources of carbon. So getting applying the power of the Internet to reducing water consumption, reducing the inputs, healthier food can be really interesting. And so we're starting to see, you know, proof points that evidence of that happening like in marijuana production, where the where the tagging is being driven by different regulatory needs. I think this is starting to be normalized this idea of having Internet of Things technology at the plant level, and tracing the provenance, allowing people to know where their food has come from. So one of the things that I was talking to an amazing gentleman called professor, Mike Berners. Lee, who's professor of climate science at Lancaster University, and he's written some amazing books. I've mentioned them before on the podcast, but how bad's a banana carbon footprint of everything is one. And then there is no planet B is another. And he, you know, one of the things that I think he has expressed some optimism about is the power of mobilizing our wallets, spend money on food that actually regenerates the planet, rather than makes the planet worse. And you can, there are farms where the carbon is going into the soil, and it's not coming out. And if we knew those farms, and could say I want to buy food from regenerative farms, that could be huge. Why would we do that save the planet, but also because it tastes better, has less artificial fertilizers and pesticides. And I think our ability to use Ambien IoT to join up people that make things with the people that consume things is tremendously powerful. And just makes for a better experience I, I go to one of my favorite stores in San Diego is called Jim Bose and they have it all sign says this came from this farm that is like 33 miles from this store. This could scale. And we if if everyone knew that, then we can really make a difference as individuals with and and also get better food as well. So that's great. And that's in that I'm really pleased. So just to recap, we've been going through some of the use cases and this is the way the standards process works, right you you don't just come up with technology and look for a solution you say here are the use cases. So, we could go on and I know there are other use cases but these use cases again not just coming from Willie out but from companies like Apple and find my everything. So where tell us a bit about the mechanics of creating that standard and and where we are in that process.

    Amichai Sanderovich 18:56

    So we started with the initial use cases. And now we are starting to see how the existing deployments devices can support this technology what is required for them in order to support it in the economic way, beneficial way. Timing way best time to market. And so it's kind of like you need to now connect between the dots. It's a very how job a few requirements on one end and the device on the other end. And you need to see what is the shortest way between these requirements. It's very appealing to say okay, let's rebuild everything from scratch. But this is not then economical there are sustainable solutions. So you want to be able to connect them in the most efficient way, which also makes sense for vendors. So the ecosystem can grow. We start of course, with the basic, only the link layer. What connections do we want? Do we want to connect directly to the base station? Do we want to connect to a small base stations called pico cell? Do we want to connect to the phone? We want any relay in the middle to be able to assist us? Do we want a specific band? So Sella currently has a lot of channels? With eyes on that specific frequencies? Yes, different frequencies? Yes. And then which, which channel do do we want to use? Now a lot of questions, what is the security how to apply the security? A how do we manage so many devices? So you have like, for saying 1000s of devices, a and management of such a big number is not very simple task in terms of the next show,

    Steve Statler 21:03

    I mean, so at the moment, there's roughly a billion phones made every year, but we're talking about orders of magnitude, maybe even three orders of magnitude more devices. So not billions, but the internet of trillions of things. And fortunately, this industry is very good at dealing with scale. That's one of the things that they they bring, I think beyond just the technology, it's a set of companies where there are customer service and portals. And so I'm excited about the telco industry joining Ambien IoT, because there's a level of governance and trusted companies, we may not love them, but we trust them, we're familiar with them that can help bring order to the suds. That's a really good thing. I

    Amichai Sanderovich 21:54

    think there are a lot a lot of engineering a efforts in our IQ efforts from these big companies that, you know, can really prove this and get the very good walking devices.

    Steve Statler 22:12

    So I interrupted you. So just so this you have numbers of I find this fascinating, how do you get something as complex as this to be agreed by so many companies with vested sometimes conflicting interests? And just opinions on the right way to do it? How is that organized?

    Amichai Sanderovich 22:33

    So I think any come every company has its own set of wishes, on set of customers, and all sorts of fair engineering skills. And then each company has its own trade offs internal trade of what what should we focus, what should we defocus and then we have negotiations between the companies, each company wants something else. And then everybody company gives a list. So we have, every company gives this list, you have the operators, for example, while the customers I have an attorney, they have what they want. And they put ambientale T they're quite high in their wish list. And then the technology company say we can deliver it for the next year or not. We want to delay it to later release. And then we have a lot of discussions. What will be the features going in eventually? What is easiest. And this is the this is usually done in there. It's a process called in meeting calls workshop. So during the workshop, are the companies counting flesh their feathers, and then eventually, you come up with what most of the company thinks it's reasonable agreeing, agreeing to this and and then stop the actual work of the of the converge the task.

    Steve Statler 24:14

    So we have a list of dozens and dozens of features that could be in release 19 What will become 5g Advanced? Maybe we don't give specific numbers but roughly how many features can be fit in a release and roughly where is Ambien IoT, the top but the bottom below the bottom of the cutline. Where, where are we?

    Amichai Sanderovich 24:39

    So I think it's a good question. The ambient IoT is very high on the wish list of most of the companies,

    Steve Statler 24:50

    which makes sense because whether you're an equipment maker or an operator, there's huge value. There's a lot of money to be made as well as solving light We all want to be found if we're having a stroke or we want to have good food, we all want to have the the climate problem solved. So that way,

    Amichai Sanderovich 25:11

    I think also it's, it's if you want to prepare to six, three, is you must start with the certain features are early on? Yes, in order for them to mature towards the six g you cannot wait too much. So this is a trade of actually, how many features you want to keep on walking from 5g And how many new features towards the six g you want to start a clothing? Heater? There is a trade off? Of course there is no single answer. And the field for ambient is that it's too much work. So whether it can fit in or not, this is the main concern. There are a lot of other items, of course, other technology other features, for example, connecting your phone to a non terrestrial network. Satellite satellites. Yes, so we'll get coverage also, once you are outside of a big city, there are many other features, some are very small, require very modest amount of walk, some are bigger. So this is the discussions going on. And eventually what will come up, you know, it's it depends it depends on the eventually the converge the focus of the company. So if their focus is on very sophisticated, or high end, may take longer to develop, and then they might consider just Okay, let's keep on studying it, studying it, making sure we can actually deliver it in one year, because it's a lot of work a lot of engineering working on that. So we need to make sure we are not we are not targeting something which we which will be to tomorrow much for the time timescale that Tao currently defined.

    Steve Statler 27:13

    So it sounds like there's some enthusiasm for it. But there's still some final decisions to be made as to whether it can be fit into release 19 Or not

    Amichai Sanderovich 27:28

    correct as a feature as a feature is a study item. So we are going to work on it. There is no question. I think this is almost never you can never know, of course until the decision is made. But from what I noticed other companies are excited about it. Want to know more about it, it kind of both the engineering and the business is excited about it. They need to understand they walk impact to make sure it fits into the release 19 timescale. So this I think is the main for your discussions. Yes. And so

    Steve Statler 28:06

    we could talk more, but there's other standards work going on in other bodies. So when you're not on a plane or a conference call with our colleagues in three GPP you're also working with I triple E that defines Wi Fi. What's happening there

    Amichai Sanderovich 28:24

    is I triple A is the standard body that define the internet, it got to the friend also the Wi Fi Ethernet over a wireless. So in the Wi Fi study, a task group was not the start school but their interest group was formed last year, just to understand if it's possible, if there is a possibility to connect, to stand out Wi Fi network, our Ambien tags. And a lot of work was done there a lot of researchers and a lot of studies done by several companies and the results it seems they're reasonable. And so it's actually the processes in order to become the task group which task group needs to finish the task of defining the ambient, the standout underlying ambient tags we first need to define the project. So the study group was foul in order to define a project well, all companies agree what will be and what will want to be in the project for example, we discuss what frequencies should we include we have usually Wi Fi has a lot of frequency can work on five, five gigahertz. It can work on 2.4 gigahertz and it can also work on their sub one gigahertz. Yes. So the 2.4

    Steve Statler 30:05

    is kind of where it all started. Very busy. Software also shared with Bluetooth as well. So yes, that's interesting. So any view as to what the frequencies are that.

    Amichai Sanderovich 30:19

    So currently we are discussing, to be focused on two by four. And also on sub one G. Two bands that are currently being discussed to be the targets of Ambien tags, a two by four is very appealing, because because you get very harmonized across there, the world, single band,

    Steve Statler 30:47

    so it doesn't matter what country you're in 2.4 gigahertz is available, no one's going to get into trouble for stamping on a frequency that's been used by the emergency services or the armed forces. So it's available in a bar, and so what's what's good about so why not just use 2.4? What would we use that lower sub gigahertz to see for

    Amichai Sanderovich 31:13

    support 2.4 is very appealing, it's also all the other devices, they're all the devices, the legacy walk on that so you can get practically received everywhere. And they there are issues with this band. First of all, it's, it's very crowded, a lot of lots of devices there. So there are concerns to avoid them too much radiating too much to this band to avoid the interference. And the other thing is that sub one G conducts power much better compared to 2.4. So if we are to conduct power, and the charge our tags, our tags can be much can walk much better. If it is working on the sub one gigahertz band, compared 2.4. Still, they're both working well. This is better. So

    Steve Statler 32:13

    this makes sense. And I guess we have practical experience, we have a product that scaling to more than 100 million units. And it pretty much uses those bands today. The the 2.4 for sending data and the sub gigahertz for harvesting power. And I think we're all concerned and want to manage that, how busy that 2.4 is because it is by us by current Wi Fi devices and Bluetooth devices. But I have some personal experience I sit in our offices in San Diego, I have something called the wall of Willie up behind me which is 1000 Bluetooth tags, all be energized, all broadcasting. And I'm able to use my earbuds, my wireless mouse, my wireless keyboard. And it works fine because these devices are not like it's not like streaming music, it's little, little bursts of data. So and of course 2.4 isn't just 2.4 it's actually many channels, isn't it. So that'll be very interesting to see if we can work on some good schemes to use the dozens of different channels to send that data and make it really scale,

    Amichai Sanderovich 33:29

    perhaps who can join the actual middle because this was actually one of the main discussion points in the last meeting,

    Steve Statler 33:38

    or conference be in next time. And I can point to 1000 tags by

    Amichai Sanderovich 33:42

    paper. Very rarely say you have hundreds of tags, how can we work together, it was too much. But your point is really right. Because every tag sends only like, very tiny amount of beats very infrequent. And very low power. Every tag. That is

    Steve Statler 34:00

    the key we're whispering I always say the analogy I use is Slike. Because when we first bought our product out, people say what's the range, what's the range, you need to have long range and we have very short range our if our tags are talking and they do kind of talk, they're really whispering. And so it's like having a big restaurant, federal shouting, You can't hit everyone. But if if every tables whispering to each other, you can have a lot of tables and they can get a lot of great discussions going. And so having tags that whisper is really the source of scalability, and then maybe something great comes out of a discussion at the table and someone stands up and then they shout out oh, this is what we've decided. And that can then go out to you know, a broader set of people and that, in a way is the way we're organizing our products with tags that talk to this these bridge devices that consolidate and then occasionally shout out the answer to the wider networks. I hope that's the way things go. Because, you know, we want it to work. And that's what we've seen does I think

    Amichai Sanderovich 35:05

    I think eventually the technical and the physical world kind of really leads you to very similar solutions. There is no pragmatism logic here. Yes, yes. So yeah, I think, you know, it's not going coincidence that we our product is 2.4 and sub one gigahertz, and the Wi Fi is also we are discussing these bands. This is my the vendor, that makes sense. I mean, yeah. And, of course, the other problems also, I think, we face maybe Wi Fi, we'll find different solutions for that what we did, then they also were very good multiple of solutions. But the to understand the important thing, I think, is to understand the problems, which is very different than cell phone all the way. Here, dog. It's, it's it's different. It's different type of traffic, a different type of security, different type of range, as you said. So once once we understand the we understand the problem, then we can find the solutions.

    Steve Statler 36:17

    So where how have things progressed? So it sounds like there's some good discussions going how far have you got in the standards making process with I Tripoli? So

    Amichai Sanderovich 36:28

    in that AAA, I think the group for a Ambien power are the companies that are involved directly, I think we can have did manage to get some sort of agreement. But we still don't, we need to align with other groups and other companies as well, in order to make sure the project is is aligned, and fits well, in the entire dotnet run ecosystem. So this is the stage we are at now. I think we need to we need to convey a the the differences on all the things we talk here about the differences between what's the regular Wi Fi so that it's more clear to other groups as well, not just to the working group. Focus on that on this issue. So I, I hope in the next few months, we get this done. And then we can start, I hope by January, even before the task group, that group stage, we are starting actual work on what are we going to do what we define how we define it? What is the you know how the beats are going through the hair? How the energizing is going to happen? What is the signaling needed? Security, the routing or all there are the technical details that needs to be filled in in order for device to work when

    Steve Statler 38:04

    it's good. So we touched on this in our previous conversation, but I want to revisit it. We have I triple E we have three GPP we have Bluetooth that already has implementations on it. Is there room for these three standards? How do they compare? Will there be a winner? Will there be a loser? What's How would you differentiate between what's likely to come out of those three different standards bodies?

    Amichai Sanderovich 38:33

    Here, first of all, I think we are defining a new, a new device type a new class. So it's important to remember we are not just adding a feature to our phone, we are defining a new class of devices. And there in order for such a class to be successful, we must have a variety because not every market has the same requirements. So I believe that the these standards, each will have its own niche of the same class of devices. So for example, the seller usually defined license banned operations, so it's more expensive usually compared to Wi Fi. However, it gives you better better performance, better reliability, so you get better service with better retire costs. So you get the variety, which is very, very important FICO system. For example. Maybe you want to have coverage in hard places. And you're willing to pay more for the data ongoing going from hard places compared to data that is easy places. Let's say with the easier had to get the data and then you are willing to pay less. And you're getting different devices and different service,

    Steve Statler 40:06

    I guess, you have quality of service with, with the cellular, licensed band, but you also have customer service, don't you? You can actually go into a portal and talk to someone about the coverage in this area. And yeah, I think especially as we start to think about privacy, and you know, normal people making sense of this ambient IoT world where everything in their pantry is online, and everything in their medicine cabinet, in their drinks cabinet, in their tool cabinet is online, and maybe not everyone wants that. You know, for for me, I want to know whether my kids have remembered to take their medication, whether my parent has taken their medication, whether it's been kept at the right temperature, I don't want to run out of Bombay Sapphire, gin, I'd like to have that auto replenish. But quite legitimately, some people might not want to opt into that. And they want to talk to someone about making sure that no one's observing their drinking habit, habits or knowing the medicine they're taking. There's so pros and cons to all these things. And the thing that I like about Yes, maybe you pay a little bit more for for the telco grade service, but you have some someone to help with the governance and the customer service, I think as a lot to be said for that. But free is also good.

    Amichai Sanderovich 41:35

    So I think I think we need both. I mean, there is no one winner take it sticks, Texaco, like our said, it's like, you have a lot of a lot of markets with a lot of needs, each with its own unique event, even the same way customers sometimes have different problems they need to solve. I guess, controlling the field is not like controlling in store different places. So I think it's a very healthy process that both have the development and the types. And in the early age, in the early stage, we can see the differentiation between the and understand the differences, the commonalities and the differences. And I think it also appeals to more company wants to have more standards. Each has its own unique IP handling and technology, investment portfolios. So every company has a different view and different angle on that. So it allows more company to get in. So it's example only cellular did it much fewer companies, a will would have implemented it compared to if also Wi Fi thing. Defining.

    Steve Statler 42:52

    Yeah, that is one of the things that excites me about this, I mean Internet of Things is not a new idea. It's been around for decades, but I don't think it's really achieved its full potential. And one of the things that can help change that is some of the giants that operate that have this recurring revenue relationship with almost every adult, almost every adolescent in the modern world. And I think it's gonna take those those giants to, to bring the innovation and the ecosystem of applications writers, they get to sit on top of these ambient IoT platforms, and really harness the creativity and make it easy to use and, and scale and standards are the basis of all of that without the slight laws. You know, Why is America for all its faults, such a great country for innovation and commerce, it's because they have basically pretty solid legal system and standards. And that's really what we need to bring to IoT. So I'm a high we normally do the three favorite songs. You've been on the show before so we've already done that. So I wanted to instead ask you about something a little unusual you as well as leading our standards effort, you are also another kind of leader of filmmaking. What what tell us a bit about this movie that you made and what was your role in it?

    Amichai Sanderovich 44:28

    Yeah, I just kind of like something a passion of mine. I really liked moving all the time. So I I wanted to create one. So and I studied a little bit directing where directing is like you need to know everything. So you study a little bit acting a little bit. A camera, a little bit production a little bit screenwriter I think all you know a little bit about anything. And then you need to compile everything into one creation.

    Steve Statler 45:09

    It's holistic. Yes. Which I think good standards should be holistic should they should they have to balance many things here today,

    Amichai Sanderovich 45:17

    there are a lot of commonalities with the actual walk, you know, actual doing things. So even though of course, movies are more creative, and much more flexibility to do a lot of things. But you still have legacy also in movies, similar to the standards, and you still need to move people to the right direction. Well, similar to the standout work,

    Steve Statler 45:45

    yes, you're harnessing a lot of different creative ideas, sometimes there's conflict, and

    Amichai Sanderovich 45:51

    all the time they are conflict. Of course has yes and a you need to lead and have a vision of the clear vision of what you want it to be. And get everyone on board on board with their own creativity and knowledge and expertise into one coherent creation. And the standouts is they're very similar in that

    Steve Statler 46:20

    you need to be flexible, though, you need to adapt your style different, behave differently with different people understand what they need in order to get the best. But ultimately, you have a responsibility to the work for making sure that it all comes together that has to be the primary driver. So what is the movie that you made?

    Amichai Sanderovich 46:43

    So I made the movie a about a group of engineers worked on the during the time of the Second World War which historic movie with a lot of props and artifacts and heart a lot of fake out related to the to the time the history historic time. And basically it I will not reveal the entire plot.

    Steve Statler 47:16

    But what was the engineering task? They were

    Amichai Sanderovich 47:20

    this is part of the it's a it's not a it's a hard movie it's not a comedy. Oh, right. It's a drama it's a drama a drama exactly where you kind of take engineering which is surprisingly not very different from what it was like 50 years ago I mean solving engineering a group of engineers needs to solve engineering problems the a very similar act very similar. Even though today we have computers, the essence is very similar. And then I am showing a specific problem they had to face the face and and using all the story context and I hope it relates anyone who is currently working in some IT Engineering Company to what it was like 15 years ago, and you can actually relate and understand that things are not very different eventually.

    Steve Statler 48:26

    So this is it's funny how there's these waves of creative productions like Oppenheimer's just come out as we're recording their service in the states big movie. So maybe there's some parallels maybe, obviously a different engineering task. I I imagine so what what is the movie called? And is there a way that we can see it? I haven't seen it I like to see it. So

    Amichai Sanderovich 48:52

    So it said that engineers it's called and the engineers are getting Yes. And I'm I will I'm going to send it to some known festivals and see if I get in some marketing and publicity in order to get and only then I can publish it to public networks like you know, V mail and things like that that can you can actually see the movie outside country there is no way to see it.

    Steve Statler 49:28

    And is it in Hebrew is in Abuja, and so subtitled hopefully, those of us who are who are slightly less fluent in the language.

    Amichai Sanderovich 49:38

    Yes, yes. There. When you're doing it in Israel, it's not very easy to find English speaking actors. So I had to do it in Hebrew. And yeah, I will add some subtitles in English as well.

    Steve Statler 49:57

    Excellent. So I think you'll do very important work. Thank you very much for what you're doing. I know some personal costs with the the late hours and all of the appreciate you're updating us. And I will check in again and see how things are progressing. Thank you, Emma. Hi.

    Amichai Sanderovich 50:21

    Thank you very much for having me. Good to see you again.

    Steve Statler 50:26

    So that was our standards update episode. I hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as I did in having that conversation with Emma Hi, is a really wonderful creative force and really pleased with the progress that we're hearing about. Do subscribe to hear the latest on what's happening with Ambien IoT will continue to interview companies that are working on products and standards and generally influencing the ecosystem. I want to thank Aaron hammock for editing this show. And I want to thank you for tuning in and making it possible. Speak to you next time