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Mister Beacon Episode #153

6G and Ambient IoT

September 27, 2022

Bluetooth tags have been revolutionary in connecting our digital and physical worlds, but have yet to achieve their full potential. What if the technology, marketing power, and infrastructure reach of the telecommunications industry were to get behind the Ambient IoT use cases which Bluetooth is starting to enable? It’s happening now. The standards bodies developing 5G & 6G have recently set their sights on Ambient IoT.

This week, we talk with Amichai Sanderovich – a veteran of this space and Wiliot’s representative on the standards bodies that are driving 5G & 6G. With his help, we understand the current state of play of Ambient IoT as part of 5G and 6G, where it might go and what the implications are.


  • Steve Statler 00:00

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast, we've got a very special, I think, significant episode of the show. This week, we're going to be talking about 6g and ambient IoT. And this is something that could be a game changer. And there's quite a lot to it. But we have found someone who I think is one of the best-equipped people to talk to about it. Amichai Sanderovich for Wiliot. And he spends his time working on new standards, and has got an amazing track record. So I hope you find this useful. And actually hope you find this episode memorable. As solution designers, entrepreneurs, part of our very strange job is trying to predict the future trying to identify technologies that will be significant. And then we place bets and the currency is often our own time, our careers, time of our companies and 60 MB a day. IoT is one of these really significant technologies that could alter the course of what we do those of us that work in this world of digital physical convergence, auto ID, indoor location, asset tracking, call it what you will. So enjoy it. I hope you find it interesting. The Mr. Beacon podcast is sponsored by Wiliot intelligence for everyday things powered by IoT pixels. So Amichai, thanks very much for agreeing to speak with me. I really appreciate it.

    Amichai Sanderovich 01:55

    Sure. Glad to be here.

    Steve Statler 01:57

    This is an unusual show. I mean, way back when years ago when this podcast started, before I joined Wiliot, all of our interviews were done like this. And then COVID happened and we kind of fell into this remote thing. But I'm here in Israel, you normally work in Israel, it seemed like a great chance to talk to you because I think you're working on some really interesting stuff. And I want to take this opportunity to pick your brains in public, as it were about what's happening with 6g, which I think is a very important standard. And we'll talk about 5g as well, of course. But before we get into that and how that's impacting IoT, maybe we should start off with you taking a few minutes to introduce yourself and what you do at Wiliot

    Amichai Sanderovich 02:46

    Sure. I can relate from Qualcomm, which I joined after a startup I worked at, Wilocity was bought eight years ago. In Wiliot, I

    Steve Statler 03:05

    just pause Wilocity is the company founded by the current Wiliot founders who were working on millimeter wave, super high performance. Now part of the 5g standard,

    Amichai Sanderovich 03:24

    yes, it was the other other side of the standard, if I call it the high end, high throughput, high cost, yes. side of things. Yeah. This was in Wilocity, I used to be the algorithm guy and also I, I was a delegate to the standardization.

    Steve Statler 03:43

    What does algorithm guy mean? What what sort of so all

    Amichai Sanderovich 03:47

    modern algorithms are all the beamforming Okay. Decoding, the acquisition, the fi, all these deep tech, deep tech stuff, as long as interacting with other groups like all the other design groups in will, will also be including analog that I met Alon, of course,

    Steve Statler 04:15

    Alonza is the Williams CTO, right? Yes.

    Amichai Sanderovich 04:19

    And, of course, also relating to all the standardization efforts, mainly I AAA and also, we had the separate SIG to develop all the details, the technical details, which was later converted to the IEEE.

    Steve Statler 04:37

    So maybe a way of saying this is we've seen this movie before. You've taken some cutting edge technology, and help to shepherd it into a framework where there are actually standards that took something that was novel and very interesting, but made it open so that lots of people could adopt it.

    Amichai Sanderovich 04:59

    Exactly. moderator, the moderator to eat into agreement between many companies. Okay, so it's it's more a consensus based not proprietary approach.

    Steve Statler 05:14

    And how does that relate to what you're doing now here at William.

    Amichai Sanderovich 05:19

    So in Riyadh, we also have a super interesting technology, I think, very innovative. We have a cutting edge, execution and technology, I think, which seems very interesting, I think, for participating in standardization, because at least from my experience, standardization, usually benefit a lot by startup introducing what is possible. Before major companies, the big companies start to execute, and be more involved in the startups, they want to say it makes sense, they have a market for it, they have the technical ability to, to execute it. It's not very, very exotic, it needs to be something that is deliverable in time and in a production level technology. And through all the layers of a real product. Numerous purchase or viewpoints like security, or accessibility, or mobility, legal, marketing, whatever is going to be using this technology needs to understand that there is a complete set of experts supporting it, making sure it's up to specific levels. And we as a contributor, expected our experience, both the market and the usage. And then of course, the technology in the manufacturing the design. Our experience will be exposed to the these group these groups, so they can use it and they and hopefully, benefit from it.

    Steve Statler 07:22

    So this is a really interesting point that you're making. And I think, you know, a lot of our viewers, entrepreneurs, solution designers, and it must, it's a bit of a dilemma, isn't it you on one hand, you seek to develop something that's very unique, where you're very differentiated, where you have an advantage against your competitors. But what you appear to be doing is executing a strategy where all of that advantage is given away?

    Amichai Sanderovich 07:54

    Yes, it's, it's the classic dilemma of business. Do you want to give some away? Or do you want to be to keep everything to yourself? Yes. And they usually a, this is something I think tal has taught me very well.

    Steve Statler 08:12

    So he's willing to see one of the founders right along with alone in your own

    Amichai Sanderovich 08:17

    correct. And usually when you share your knowledge, others can benefit you as well, because they provide you with solutions or complementary issues or problems that you are not fully aware of that they can supplement your design and then you can propose to a customer, a much more complete solution. It guarantees for a customer that Hello, long term support for the technology is guaranteed. It guarantees more widespread adoption, which allows for lowering the cost and providing a better longevity and future design of future. products will support also this device that you have it much, much more complete customer offering than compared to if you keep everything to yourself, then you don't have all these. Also the feedback from other companies, the technical guys from other company significantly enhance the quality.

    Steve Statler 09:44

    Yeah. So it's a fascinating thing because as a business development sales guy in the past I've really tried I've focused so much on here's our advantage, but you know what I've seen it's been fun Five years it really are. And really no one is where where the art is in terms of battery free Bluetooth computer the size of a postage stamp, range sensing security. But what I've seen is one of the challenges is when you're that far ahead, the lack of competition actually holds you back. People mean, this is a technology that can completely transform enterprises use cases, even industries. But it's not going to happen if people have to entrust 150 person company, even though they're backed by Amazon, and Softbank, and so forth, it's just not going to happen. And so I even though it seems really weird to be giving up all of this advantage, or this insight, or this experience, all the products have a lot of risk taking its time to kind of if I think if this technology is to cross the chasm, then you have to acknowledge Yeah, we're gonna go from the innovators and the early adopters, the kind of the early players in the Geoffrey Moore Crossing the Chasm paradigm, if we're gonna get to the early majority, then we have to, essentially, eliminate the risks. And you do that by bringing in large companies having them think it through add the benefit of their experience. So let's agree that we're doing the right thing, opening all this secret sauce up and spreading it around. What's the mechanism to do that? So what's, who are the standards bodies that you're working with.

    Amichai Sanderovich 11:45

    So currently, there are other companies that are very interested in this and are promoting exactly the same use cases we are seeing, we are envisioning for two, standardization. But they actually the two largest standardizations. A one is the free TPP, which is their standardization, which is responsible for the cellular, a world starting from 2g, 3g, going now to 5g, all the including all the network, the backward backend network supporting it, including all the security aspects and mobility handover, the global the global deployments and the inter interstates issues, regulatory issues, all these aspects. And in connecting to the network, the services, the applications, so

    Steve Statler 12:54

    three GPP Third Generation Partnership or something free data Partnership Project, partnership project. They're the folks that defined 3g, 4g 5g, and then six g is kind of in an inevitability, I guess. And what you're saying is that there are other members of that will yacht's a member now. Thanks to you and along. So you're kind of going back to some of the folks maybe that you worked with in the past, but we're not the only ones that are thinking of these use cases. What's the what are these? What's the umbrella term for these use cases? What are they being called?

    Amichai Sanderovich 13:41

    This is their attempt at ambient IoT in India, Jyoti. Yes, and this is an umbrella name for all a very, very low power low cost tags or devices that can be connected to a 3g puppy network, which will provide you with a global coverage actually. And the only use case we are dealing with as well, on top of others like logistic centers, supply chains, manufacturing, shopping, agriculture. Even they find me with the smaller scale,

    Steve Statler 14:23

    right? So rather than find my phone, it might be find my passport, find my wallet, find my medicine by my jacket. Yes, so this technology is sort of going down to the item level. So if we if we kind of look at the standards that have existed, because this isn't the first time that three GPP and 5g has looked at IoT, right? Correct. We've had what can you name where we are in that IoT evolution.

    Amichai Sanderovich 14:57

    So one, one of the main items for 5g, if you recall was IoT. And there are two main features one of the one is the NB IoT. And the second one is the reduced capacity.

    Steve Statler 15:13

    Okay, so NB IoT narrowband IoT. What is narrowband IoT?

    Amichai Sanderovich 15:18

    Yeah, so this is actually, it's very similar to reduce capability devices, which are basically taking the cellular modem and tricking it and reducing its capability in order for it to meet lower cost, run and then enable. But it's not guaranteeing anywhere, stick a form factor, it's near

    Steve Statler 15:41

    these kind of phone size devices, basically, but probably a little more efficient and using the network.

    Amichai Sanderovich 15:52

    A little bit more efficient and little bit less costly. But still, it's a long gap to the 00 cost record.

    Steve Statler 16:03

    So you're talking about a device that is many 10s of dollars, probably $100 or so that's progress. I guess that was progress. That was an important step forward. And in my mind, those NB IoT devices, were good for integrating into containers, shipping containers, and who knows even appliances and cars and things like that. But it seems like what you're working on now is actually connecting with the things that are in the shipping containers, the products that are in the appliances, the refrigerators, the washing machines, the things that are inside the car, the parts and that sort of thing. That's Is that a reasonable? Correct? What was the other standard that you were talking about reduced capability or just

    Amichai Sanderovich 16:56

    capabilities, it's another so in the IoT is one one item one set of properties. And the second one is reduced capability, which also takes basically takes standard modem where we all have in our phones, and we do significantly reducing its capability to make it cheaper, okay, so we can deploy it, so it won't cost as much as a phone modem. And, and properly, being able to reduce the cost will make enable it to be deployed ball with more devices like sensors in industrial in industry, where we need to put the sense of opportunity, for example, it's not a sticker from facto right anywhere anywhere near but it's still a reasonable four cents or to use this.

    Steve Statler 17:55

    So it's a step on the way to being able to get to ambient IoT, which is well what is ambient IoT? How would you define so Ambia

    Amichai Sanderovich 18:04

    30 is taking the extra step from the NB IoT or they reduce gap which enable truly almost zero cost or material costs take a form factor something closer to RFID stickers, which is significantly different than what an NB IoT or just capability currently, such as enabling the 5g So in order to enable this huge market, a significant technical changes needs to be adopted by the fridge EPP which will differentiate it from the NB IoT.

    Steve Statler 18:48

    So you mentioned RFID these a sticker form factor technology RFID exists today and sort of standards that support them. Why would three GPP bother to look at something that's already out there? It works. What's

    Amichai Sanderovich 19:10

    my guess? And good question. And, and basically our end product is very similar in size to our ID indeed. And also, the information coming out of the tag is very similar. A there are several issues with our RFID tags. First of all, it's a very old technology. It's like more than 20 years on the market. But it keeps progressing there ever more markets and but they have a specific market because then there is a need for a very sophisticated reader in order to to read these tags. The reader must be very close to the tag, few meters no more. And it's very expensive. I mean, it's not something that you can deploy in huge Logistics Center, yes, without very significant costs to the additional cost. And it's basically a little bit different. I mean, it's not like cellular when you you can envision wide why they deployment and why coverage wide coverage. They RFID has a much smaller coverage, local usage more,

    Steve Statler 20:30

    kind of, because the emphasis, the tags are pretty low cost, but the infrastructure is really quite expensive. You're talking about hundreds 1000s In some cases, hundreds of 1000s of dollars, if you and and maybe even millions, if you're going to blanket and have kind of continuous real time visibility everywhere. Yes. So it seems like RFID has, has made progress, it's kind of probably the closest thing that we've got to this vision of IoT. But it's kind of got stuck, because it's because of the technologies cost, it seems like it's there at choke points, you know, you can get an expensive handheld reader, but it's a proprietary device, it doesn't do anything else seems like with three GPP given that their technology is in the phones, and it's everywhere. Ever, then potentially what this does it it is it has readers of sticker sized, let's call it auto ID technology automatically identifying technology that can give a unique ID to assets that could be everywhere, anywhere in everyone's pockets in eventually built into cars and appliances. And so yes, that's pretty exciting prospect. I mean, this could change the world, right? I agree,

    Amichai Sanderovich 21:56

    something that many companies are looking at. And everybody understanding the knowledge, the gap between the NB IoT, she's very low cost infrastructure, but very high cost device. On the other hand, the RFID has a very cost effective tags, but the infrastructure is very expensive. So this gap where you need reasonable infrastructure, but also reasonable price tags, is something that now Fuji pays looking at.

    Steve Statler 22:27

    And, you know, if we look at the RFID industry, there's some pretty big deployments, but it's not ubiquitous as it it's. And as a student of this space, I kind of look at all the effort that goes in on an RFID deployment to prove the return on investment. And it has to be just out of the park good in order for this technology to be developed to my perspective on, you know, the progression of 3g, 4g, 5g 60, there's almost an inevitability about it. And I think, I mean, some of the reasons are pretty obvious. You have some of the largest companies in the world, phone companies tend to be very, very large. And they have big advertising budgets. And these devices that they provide the technology for, they've got a some kind of replacement cycle. So it seems like there's an almost inevitability about a technology that ends up in that basket of ideas of tools, that it's just gonna happen. And that's kind of what you want. When you're building an infrastructure that's going to transform the world. It's not like, we don't look at the ROI around a highway to get from one side of the states to another. It's just infrastructure that's there. And that's what enables commerce. And it seems like this is the potential there's so you can probably tell I'm very excited. Where are we now in this process? What are the stages that we have to go through before? We don't have to think about it, and we can just have tags that are virtually free talking to devices that are already there. What

    Amichai Sanderovich 24:16

    are the stages? Yeah. So freeze up now is in the process of starting this. So they're issuing technical reviews about the technology, where they have concerned about the technical, the technical possibility of achieving this widespread adoption. So they're carefully checking every item and see that that how can this be resolved in our standards in the in the future PP standard. By the end of next year, probably middle of next year. There will be the technical report including the normative data Next. Once this report is made up, it goes to all the other groups, which is the security group, the mobility assessment access group, the Cornetto group, the run group, the radio access group, each of these groups start to work on the specific item which relates to its expertise, and how they are going to implement this feature, if any, if it's possible, maybe they can conclude it's not possible. So this is the process. And now there are two really two relevant releases for GPP works not on 5g of 60, but on releases.

    Steve Statler 25:50

    Okay, so this 5g thing is really just a marketing marketing.

    Amichai Sanderovich 25:54

    It's a GSM GSM a forum, which market the technology is 5g Six G, IoT, okay. So once the requirements are established in the release 18 and 19 or 20, then the SMA will issue marketing brand 60. 5g, right, usually the feature not like it's not getting in, in specific release it start in a specific release. Second release adds more enablers. So it's a process

    Steve Statler 26:28

    okay. So what release are we are on at the moment?

    Amichai Sanderovich 26:31

    So 2024 Should they have release 18 at the market product? Okay, so now we are in the process of closing, release 18. Okay, release 19 is expected 2026 product in the market. So now the definition and requirements and specification goes for early citing in 19. There are two walking items for this ambient IoT in real estate thing. There is a walking item for the there is a study item for the run group that try to understand if it's reasonable to include something in really setting already for the run. Run is the radio access network. So

    Steve Statler 27:18

    So those the base stations, the cell towers, we see by the motorway, the actual

    Amichai Sanderovich 27:23

    connection between the base station and the phone is run, okay. And then this group starts to study, probably it's not confirmed yet, but study the how long the entirety run will be, can be used, can be defined, okay. And the other activities, they say one the group, which is the more general, this is intended for release 19. Which means we define KPI for the downstream groups, like I said, Mobility Security core network study item for them to start work on this feature for release 90.

    Steve Statler 28:03

    Okay. So it seems like there's standards and technology that can go into base stations, and there's gonna be components that will go into handsets and mobile devices. And if I'm hearing you properly, there's a possibility that base stations could maybe talk to tags. And handsets, could talk to tags as well.

    Amichai Sanderovich 28:29

    Now discussions of these also as well, I'm not sure where it going. Yes. But of course, it will need to be supported also by the core network, right? Because the the service which is provided by the tags, it's not a regular service that they use, from the phone, it's a different service.

    Steve Statler 28:48

    Well, this is really important. And I think, you know, when I'm the marketing guy, so I try and make everything simple. We talk about battery free Bluetooth tags, there we are in production of version two, it works it scales, thing, you know, just cost pennies. And people very often say, that's a great pitch, I'd like to buy some and then we say, Oh well, but there's also these cloud components. And you need to have these other low cost Bluetooth devices, they only cost a few dollars, but you need those. And so even with our technology, which is in production and scaling, we're making millions of these tags every month we're taking purchase orders for hundreds of millions of these things. Yes, it's more than just a tag is what I'm taking a long time to say. But so I'm kind of excited because I think it's the other bit everyone gets the tag. But the thing that slows people down is, oh, I've got to have cloud services. Oh, I need to have some software that's running on the Wi Fi access point. Even though the Wi Fi Access Point guys there, you know, we will have been working with all of them. And so all that's happening it's So, you know very much for Willie art, and it doesn't allow you to have a multi vendor solution. So the thing that excites me is kind of the boring bits. But the bits that really allow the scale, which is beyond the tag, we prove that you can have a tag that's secure. That can sense. That's very low costs. But we know that it's the infrastructure that slows things down. And what I'm hearing is that, that you, telco guys are really good at infrastructure right freed

    Amichai Sanderovich 30:30

    up, one of the main advantages of free GPP is the ability to enable it across the entire service network. All the all the all the features, the billing, everything is included. So you get a very good coverage and support for this feature across many, many, you can get devices supporting it without even knowing the name earlier. So

    Steve Statler 30:58

    yeah, let's get so you sort of referenced, you know, if this technology works, question, but you and I know this technology does work, because we've seen it on customer sites, and we know that we've got huge backlog of orders for it, and so forth. So does that. Does that help? The process?

    Amichai Sanderovich 31:25

    Yep. So one of the main motivations, I think, for us to join the the these standardization meetings, is to show that it can be done that it works. This is one example how we did it, there are may be improvements that other companies can suggest. But it can be done it can walk. Yeah. There is no way we are experts in our company, from the antennas to the digital back end and to the cloud services and the data analysis. And the fact that we are all in the same company at the same site, enable us to deliver real optimizations and will Yes. I don't know why we say that we'll compromise from each other to make it work. Yes. Which are harder for larger companies. So

    Steve Statler 32:22

    yeah, I think that's absolutely true. In a sense, it would be very hard for a very large company to do what we as a small company have done our strength is almost our smallness in size and the fact that there's been this compelling vision and everyone has had to work together. There's no, there's very little politics here. It's like, how can we get this to work? So hopefully, that will help to work as a catalyst to his maybe it's not. We're not saying it's going to be done our way. Of course. There'll be other ideas, hopefully ideas that will make what we're doing better, Greg, but the question of does it work? Can it work is not really a question. It can work, it can scale, can it be improved? Quite probably. Hopefully, it will, and it will change. And well, hopefully, you use the brains Trust, which is this incredibly powerful organization. We've covered a lot. I think we should probably wrap it up now. And listen, is there anything else that you think we should have talked about just to kind of inform people

    Amichai Sanderovich 33:31

    so there is another major standardization which we mentioned at the beginning, which is the IEEE. IEEE is responsible for the entire internet, Ethernet, wireless internet, which is another very big standardization, which is also started to look on this ambient IoT. It's called the amp ambient power devices, which is also looking on this and maybe there there will be also a standard out there that supports this form factor. Need to see if it's also

    Steve Statler 34:11

    how does that play out though? Do you potentially have incompatible standards between IEEE?

    Amichai Sanderovich 34:16

    Yes, eventually, your product needs to choose. Okay, which one to go?

    Steve Statler 34:21

    Okay. Yeah, so a bit of competition in the standards area. Oh, that's probably a good thing. I already did. Excellent. So how much I have you had a chance to think about your three favorite songs. It

    Amichai Sanderovich 34:35

    sounds it's will it was a very difficult exercise.

    Steve Statler 34:39

    I imagine. It's one of the more difficult things you had to do today.

    Amichai Sanderovich 34:42

    I think so. Yeah. I imagine so, but I did manage to come up with free. Excellent. What are they? So first one is Mr. Blue Sky. You know,

    Steve Statler 34:54

    I do yellow is one of my favorite albums. Yes, yes, mine too. Have any reason why it's a

    Amichai Sanderovich 35:03

    it's a it's kind of very connecting music. I mean, it's very melodic. Yes, but also very good vibes. Yeah, like, positive very comes from very deep place I guess when you're looking at. Yes. See? And you see the positive things,

    Steve Statler 35:24

    so that's really good. Yeah, I was it was reminds me of my grandmother, who I used to help her. I helped her decorate her apartment when I was a teenager, and she bought me that album as a thank you. So thank you for that means something to me too.

    Amichai Sanderovich 35:44

    It's nice. It's, it's another one.

    Steve Statler 35:49

    Yeah, sure. Okay, so that's number one. Number two.

    Amichai Sanderovich 35:53

    The number two is the Metallica. Ah, yeah, it's the, it's named. Nothing else matters.

    Steve Statler 36:02

    Okay. After say you're on your own there. I respect metal, but I'm not particularly conversant with it. Any reason for that? One?

    Amichai Sanderovich 36:14

    I think it's very energetic. And also a bit a bit more personal. It's not like noise, but there are some personal things there that I can relate to.

    Steve Statler 36:28

    Okay, the lyrics, the lyrics, all right. Yes. What are the lyrics about?

    Amichai Sanderovich 36:33

    It's nothing else matter. It's like, you know, a personnel staff that you are in. You need to convince yourself that you are the one that important. Everything else is noise. And to like, this, this is mine does believe in yourself sort of thing. Believe in yourself? Yeah. Believe in the things that you are important. And the feeling is important. Yeah.

    Steve Statler 37:01

    Very, yeah. That's excellent. I can see why you chose it. Number three,

    Amichai Sanderovich 37:09

    and number three is totally different. It's Rihanna. I also like her music. And she has the love on the brain. You know, the song.

    Steve Statler 37:20

    I'm actually not super familiar.

    Amichai Sanderovich 37:24

    Yeah, she also has, like, a nice touch to the lyrics. And yeah, love on the brain is like, a little bit. Stranger, you know, live on love on the brain. Yeah. Not live on the body.

    Steve Statler 37:42

    Okay. Cerebral in your mind. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Thanks. Well, thanks for sharing those three songs. Among others, really? You say you're, you're into music generally.

    Amichai Sanderovich 37:55

    I like music. Yeah,

    Steve Statler 37:57

    me too. Me too.

    Amichai Sanderovich 37:58

    I don't know how to sing go to play anything, but makes me even like it more.

    Steve Statler 38:04

    I'm in the same boat. I used to sing in the choir. When I was a kid, my voice broke. And never again, I remember singing on my, during my bachelor party, and even when everyone was terribly drunk, and it's clear that I was causing a lot of pain to everyone around them. So the

    Amichai Sanderovich 38:20

    people around you.

    Steve Statler 38:21

    Very good. Thank you very much. Well, Amichai thanks so much. I really enjoyed this. It's a very interesting time anyone that's in technology, I think this is a huge opportunity, whether you're working for a major corporation that wants to think about how will my business model change when everything I use and sell can be connected to the internet. It's a huge opportunity for the software developers, suddenly your software can talk to everything. Every syringe, pill vial, vaccine vial, food container. I think consultants systems integrators, and the thing that really makes me excited is we've seen what an impact this can make on the world. You know, we see that when you turn the light on, which is effectively what you're doing when you connect everything you can spot massive inefficiencies, you can spot safety issues. So my hope is that the work that you're participating in takes us to a world that is more environmentally sustainable, because we're wasting less. where products are safer, where there's less theft, less leakage from euphemism. So I think it's really exciting. Well, I'm gonna make a point of checking in with you on a regular basis as we do this. And I just wanted to give a shout out if anyone is interested in what you've heard. You want to learn more, then Willie is going to be at the big telco meeting that is coming up in a few days. He's after this goes out in Las Vegas Mobile World Congress. And then there's another even bigger meeting in Barcelona MWC in Barcelona, early 2024. And we'll be presenting on a lot of the material that we've described, but we're going to be doing with some help from our friends at ABI, very respected analyst organization, they'll be talking about the market size, basically the internet of trillions. There'll be talking about some of the use cases. And we'll also have some folks from Deloitte there that are going to be talking about the process, what should companies do to get ready for all this. So if you can join us there, if you can't then watch out for a white paper that we're going to be collaborating on? That documents a lot of what we've talked about, and there's also going to be a podcast. So a lot of information coming out. I think it's worth dipping into it, because this is a huge opportunity for for the whole world really

    Amichai Sanderovich 41:05

    agree. It's like the next day transformation.

    Steve Statler 41:10

    Very good. Am I thanks again,

    Amichai Sanderovich 41:13

    thank you for having me.

    Steve Statler 41:17

    So I hope you enjoyed that. As much as I did, I got a huge amount out of that conversation. I think we've covered a lot of ground. So thanks for sticking with us listening to the end. If you've had to listen through some advertisements, and many of you if you're listening on iTunes and Spotify and so forth, you may have to put up with that. It's part of the deal with our distribution platform. They play adverts, they get money, and actually we get some money. But we actually give all of the money away. At least whilst I'm working at Willie up. My pledge is to give all our advertising revenue, money away to a charity called monarch schools, which or the monarch school which is for kids who are homeless in San Diego, which is where I am. That interview, as you probably tell is not our normal location is in New York. It's just in Israel. So thanks again. Speak to you. I will speak to you and look forward to your engagement next time.