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Mister Beacon Episode #170

Ambient IoT using Backscatter and Wi-Fi

July 25, 2023

Welcome to the Mr. Beacon Podcast, where we delve into the world of cutting-edge technology and innovation, especially Ambient IoT. In this episode, we have the privilege of sitting down with Charlotte Savage, the visionary Chief Innovation Officer and Founder of HaiLa Technologies.

HaiLa Technologies, established in 2017, has set out on a mission to revolutionize the Internet of Things (IoT) landscape with their ultra-low-power communication platform. Their primary focus is on creating battery-free sensing solutions for IoT devices, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in the realm of smart technology.

During our conversation, we explore the ingenious use of Wi-Fi backscatter technology, a key ingredient in HaiLa's approach. By harnessing Wi-Fi signals, they have unlocked the potential for IoT devices to operate without traditional power sources, liberating them from the constraints of conventional batteries.

Charlotte also takes us behind the scenes of the 802.11 AMP (ambient power) study group, an exciting endeavor that's shaping the future of Wi-Fi protocols. This forward-thinking initiative promises to further enhance the efficiency and capabilities of IoT devices, setting the stage for a more connected and intelligent world.

But the innovation doesn't stop there; we delve into the pressing issue of environmental impact. As IoT devices proliferate, so does their reliance on physical batteries, leading to sustainability challenges. Charlotte shares HaiLa's perspective on tackling this crucial aspect.

Join us as we unravel the ideas and initiatives driving the Ambient IoT revolution. Learn how HaiLa Technologies is at the forefront of creating a greener, more efficient, and seamlessly connected future for us all, a path towards a battery-free IoT world.

Check out their website: https://www.haila.io/about-us

Song links:

Dream On - Aerosmith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H58swdugE

Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwcvjNJTuM

Here Comes the Sun - The Beatles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKLV8GCrveQ


  • Steve Statler 00:00

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast. It's not often that we get to talk to other companies pioneering Ambient IoT, the the low battery, no battery technology that we see connecting every single thing and changing the way products are made, distributed, sold, used, reused and recycled. But that's what we're going to be doing today, I'm going to be talking to the founder of HaiLa, the Charlotte Savage, she is going to tell us a bit about their approach to ambient Hyla is one of the participants in the standards activity around ambient IoT a particular branch that her company is focused on is Wi Fi. And so you'll hear more about that activity, more about what her company is doing the use cases. And both of us will get pretty passionate about the regenerative sustainable applications for for this technology. But there's also I think, some really interesting technical business and market observations as well. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. The Mr. Beacon ambient IoT podcast is sponsored by Wiliot, bringing intelligence to every single thing. Okay, shall, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on the Mr. Beacon podcast.

    Charlotte Savage 01:42

    Oh, it's great to be here. Steve, I've been a big fan of Mr. beacon for for a few years now. So it's such an honor to be here. Well, we

    Steve Statler 01:49

    we met, I think it was at CES was in Las Vegas. And I got to see your technology and months have gone by and we've been meaning to record this conversation. So tell us a bit about the the company that you found it?

    Charlotte Savage 02:05

    Yeah, definitely. So highlight technologies we founded August 2017. We are an ultra low power communication platform. And our goal is to enable battery free sensing for IoT sensors. And essentially what we do is that we use existing infrastructure in our environment and piggyback off that to eliminate the power consumed at the radio down to next to nothing. So you can imagine a standard radio protocol creates a signal at the wireless device and sends out that information, what we do is that we actually jump on top of existing signals in your environment. So you can imagine at 802 dot 11, standard Wi Fi signals going back, you know, in your apartment, for example right now. And instead of you know, adding to that traffic and having you know your temperature humidity sensor that connects to your smart thermostat, instead of creating signals, what we do is we just piggyback on top of existing signals. The original term actually coined was called hitch hiking. And so that's essentially what we're doing right now.

    Steve Statler 03:05

    I can't believe it. Because I mean, six years is long time, Willie, the company I worked for we're both in the same kind of space. And I've never used the hitchhiking metaphor, I can't believe it. I can't believe that. It's been this long. I love it. So you're focused, or at least initially on Wi Fi. And so that's interesting. Our Williams has been focused on the on the Bluetooth area. How do you how do you do what you do? So I think obviously, I think it totally made sense to tap into all of the radio waves that are surrounding us. It's it's more sustainable lists. less need for for battery's low power consumption. But it sounds sounds tricky. Give us give us a sense of what you do, because you're using something called backscatter, which I actually don't think we've really explained, certainly not recently on this podcast, so it'd be great if you could,

    Charlotte Savage 04:18

    yeah, definitely. So backscatter is the foundational technology for RFID, which everyone knows that works. So all around the world, you know, in basically shipped in the billions. So it's basically been been tried and proven in that space, what we're doing is that we're adapting it to Wi Fi first. So instead of having extremely expensive RFID readers, we are actually leveraging your existing Wi Fi infrastructure to read your, you know, our hopefully battery free sensors in the future. So our technology relies on existing infrastructure, and that's where passive Baddeck backscatter really, you know, comes into play. So what we do, essentially, maybe I can take you through our products we are a semiconductor company both on the software side and the hardware side. So our first ever product, our first ever chip that we take down, was put into this little Demo Kit over here. So you can see that it's, you know, quite bulky, about the size of a credit card a couple inches thick. And here we have our first ever ASICs, application specific integrated circuit chip, right over here, that black little square and everything else is run on FPGA Field Programmable Gate Array. This is essentially to prove our concept. And to prove that we can actually suspend disbelief and that this works over Wi Fi.

    Steve Statler 05:35

    So you talked about taping out, work you my job for me explaining the other acronyms, but what does tape out me.

    Charlotte Savage 05:45

    So taping out means actually producing silicone. So that's having a chip, which is a, you know, a more likelihood form factor for commercialization where customers can inter integrate that into their existing sensors, for example. So tipping out is a well known nomenclature in the semiconductor space for actually having your silicon.

    Steve Statler 06:06

    Wonderful, thank you. I didn't mean to interrupt your flow. So you showed us version one, which is smaller than the average Wi Fi device, but I suspect you're going to show something even smaller.

    Charlotte Savage 06:20

    Well, our goal, like like we talked about, I think William has the same vision is to eliminate batteries from these types of sensors. You know, we can talk about the whole landfill problem in the future and why, you know, this power consumption bottleneck is really affecting both IoT growth, it's both affecting the sustainability factor of IoT, and much more. So our second product that we have over here, we have our second chip there. So you can see once again, 180 nanometer, silicon. And this is really exciting. So we had our second chip taped out fresh out of the labs, actually, last week, we brought it to sensors converge in California, to showcase it for the first time. And the goal is to one decrease the form factor and to you know, prove out this technology again. So we've done that we had both our digital and RF front end on our CIT, which means we got to eliminate the big clunky FPGA that I mentioned prior and the big battery on the back, this will run off a coin cell CR 2032 for about two years. And this is still a prototype version that we have, since our first digital and analog chip that we have. So that standard, the golden standard for Wi Fi communication in the space right now, as 263 days running off a coin cell CR 2032. And already with our prototype, we have that E in terms of power consumption, like I mentioned two years, the next version of our chip that will be coming out in about 18 months, we're looking at 20 to 40 years of battery life on a coin cell CR 2032. I am cognizant that these type of batteries degrade over time, and don't even last 20 to 40 years. But the point is, is to prove that we can really drive the power consumption floor for communication down so low, that you know, these sensors can be embedded within walls, embedded within flooring materials, embedded, you know within bodies as well, to be able to last that certain amount of time. And the goal after that, actually, is to have a completely battery free solution harvesting off of RF energy, which means you can imagine in that world that you have Wi Fi infrastructure already. We're piggybacking on top of it. And at the same time, we're also harvesting, there's a lot of solutions out there right now that require gateways right that require gateways to flood the area with energy just like RFID is using. And there's also a lot of technologies out there that have ultra low power communication platforms, but they as well are proprietary and take gateways. Our goal is to use the existing infrastructure, because I believe that's the way that we're really going to scale this type of technology is by partnering with Wi Fi equipment makers and and using what is already there to our advantage. And you know, Wi Fi is very ubiquitous, you know, I believe that Wi Fi is trend will continue going in the right direction, and it shouldn't be the golden standard for indoor communication. So that's a little bit about, you know, our products and why we chose Wi Fi.

    Steve Statler 09:21

    What kind of range are you getting with this? gen two product?

    Charlotte Savage 09:26

    So that's a great question. So with our gen two product, we haven't completely characterize the range, but we're looking at no room coverage. So around you know, 500 square feet. Our goal with the next one is to get full floor coverage. And we actually have a path to have 3000 square feet coverage and a standard you know, American Canadian home with three floors, and but that's leveraging the existing Wi Fi access points, and potentially other powered Wi Fi devices. Pretty good. If it makes sense to talk about 802 dot 11 Vin amp study group that's happening right now with me, because that has a big factor in getting this full coverage. So this is this, this new study group has actually has been going on for the past year. I'm really grateful because our chief scientist speeches, Cathy's who participated in BlackBerry's first ever Wi Fi at smartphone, he is representing highlight at the 802 dot 11am Study Group. And it's been such an amazing process to see this entire organization focusing on the importance of ambient powered IoT. So that's been really incredible to watch that progress. And I know that Williams and Hyla both have, you know, showcased our demos, their suspending disbelief and really trying to push this within the standards to be able to put a few things in the protocol put a few things in 802 dot 11 app to help increase coverage, for example, for backscatter, such as joint transmission beamforming, etc.

    Steve Statler 10:56

    Yeah, I'm glad that you brought up that new wi fi 802 11am P or ambient power, accuracy that's going on. And as you said, we're both active in that. And I think it's kind of a there's a parallel activity going on in 3g, pp, the third generation Partnership, which is the organization that is driving the 5g Advanced, and six G standards. And we're actually hearing rumbles for other secondary wireless protocols, that they're starting to work on ambient standards as well. So it's very exciting. And I think, you know, this and we're dancing with giants here. You know, we the work that Williams is doing over in parallel in three GPP groups, the folks contributing to those standards are companies like Apple and Qualcomm and Huawei and Willie outs very active. And I think both you, your company and ours get an outsize influence relative to the people we have in our company. Because we have working solutions, and so we're able to prove that these concepts can actually be achieved. And that's just so helpful. Where in standards, you know, when when I first when we first heard that, that it was realistic, that there would be open standards for ambient power, and like, we're just gonna get steamrolled. But I think, and or, you know, worse, it just will end up with something that doesn't work, because you know, everyone's got an opinion on the right thing to do. But fortunately, there are companies like yours, and like ours that have got got working products and customers and that sort of thing. So that really helps to focus the debate in in more constructive ways. And I think the opportunity for addressing some of the world's biggest problems. I'm not saying this is a panacea. But certainly there's a lot of amazing applications for this technology. So maybe we should, unless there's anything more that you want to say on the standards activity, we can start to talk about the applications.

    Charlotte Savage 13:35

    Yeah, definitely. Maybe a little note, I think that it's so amazing, you know that Willie and both Hyla are working on this. And I think that, you know, Bluetooth is such a space in the personal area network. And I don't think that that's going anywhere. I remember the day that the press release came out that will yet raise $200 million from Amazon Softbank Avery Dennison. That was such a big moment. For me, a lot of people were like, aren't you afraid? And like, no, like, this is amazing. I believe that we have to be collaborators and enablers to get this technology out there. Because the golden standard is not good enough right now. And I think that it's so important to have, you know, the startups that are focusing on the innovative technology for, you know, ultra low power communication. So I'm just glad to be here and talking about these really important subjects.

    Steve Statler 14:20

    Yeah, I mean, you guys have been going for a long time and startup years you it's been a long time. So you're obviously doing some things. Right? What are the what's the sweet spot for applying this technology that you're working on?

    Charlotte Savage 14:38

    I think that's kind of a two tiered answer. The first sweet spot I feel like is you know, really replacing the existing standard for ultra low power communication and being able to eliminate batteries and existing sensors that are already out there. I think that we know that you know, all of these different types of statistics that have been out there about, you know, 100 million batteries will have to be replaced every single day in, you know, 10 to 15 years from now. And I know there's a lot of statistics that are way worse than that. But I chose a conservative one, because I'm Canadian. And that's how we do. But I think that's terrifying. And I think that there's, it's so important to have sensors, especially with current events that are happening around the world, for example, the wildfires in Quebec, and being able to have air quality sensors that show us, you know, okay, now enough to close the doors, like we don't want these, you know, particulate matters that are stuck in our in our lungs and our airways. That's just one really great example. So eliminating batteries from sensors that exist already. Great. Number two is enabling all these new types of applications with battery free sensors, like embedding them within walls, I think I mentioned before embedding them in rooftops to detect smoldering fires, the potential for smoldering fires to detect mold, humidity, even have sensors on your personal area network that are monitoring your health, so that you don't have to have, you know, right now, there's a lot of duty cycling, so you're missing a lot of really valuable data. So continuous monitoring, without needing batteries, this is really important. And I feel like, you know, even for H vac systems, you know, building automation is a really huge sweet spot for Hyla, we realized, you know, I started off in the med tech space, I love this technology for medical implantables, for medical wearables, that was a long path to market, I started realizing the building automation, they were hungry for this type of technology, they started buying prototypes from us, we started engaging with them very early on, and being able to really optimize energy spent in a smart building or even, you know, retrofitting older buildings, there's way more potential there in eliminating wasted energy. And I think that's a really important place for, you know, battery free sensors to live to really automate, you know, how much are we creating in pollution, and then there's the whole other world. So that's the sweet spot for high love. But I know the sweet spot for will yet and also, you know, potentially a future sweet spot for Hyla is really making sure to create accountability in corporations and consumables, making sure that you're tracking everything that a corporation is creating as a product, having these sensors and it just like really it is doing, making sure that we know that the entire accountability chain is known, right? What how are these landfills getting filled up? How are they almost at capacity in North America and Canada, Canada, you know, I was doing some research this morning. And for us landfills, seven states are running out of landfill space in five years, one state and 10 years, three states in 20 years. So you know, in 22 states, they have a few decades left. So you know, nine out of 38 sites are full by 2030. You know, 13 others full by 2041. This is insane. And even in my hometown of Montreal, we're looking at, you know, really awful landfill problems to reach capacity as well. And I don't understand how we're creating this problem for future generations, you know, and so I see that this technology really, really can can live well within our society to help improve us and not be this generation of pollution that I think that we will be known to be for, you know, centuries to come.

    Steve Statler 18:09

    Yeah, I hear I agree with the sentiments of what you what you said there. I'm actually hoping to get another guest on this show fairly soon. Soon. He's written some incredible books, on, on on the subject of climate and carbon. And it's been very interesting, we've had the privilege to have just a preliminary conversation with with him, it's pretty amazing that you get to read a book, you love it, and then you get to have a conversation with the author. So I'm hoping that we can swayed into Talking the show, but his name is Mike Berners, Lee, Professor Mike Berners, Lee, and if anyone can kind of wants some help in getting through the FUD and, and reading some incredibly intelligent, scientific, but also human funny perspectives on on climate, then I recommend his books and there's two, there's one that's called how bad's have been on it, which that was the title for the British market in the Americas market. It's the it's the, the carbon footprint of, of everything. And the premise is that we're kind of generally fairly illiterate in terms of what the carbon footprint of things is. And there's so turns out bananas actually good. But there are other things that he would know it are bad and that's why it's worth reading the book. But there's another one that I just finished I finished it in three days. Ace, which is called, there is no planet B as in, there's no Plan B, there is no planet B. And it's basically, he exercises some opinions and recommendations on what we can do. And basically, I ended up cycling to work not every day. Because doesn't, it's not practical for me to do it every day. But I bought an electric bike. And I'm now doing that because that was one of his, his recommendations, changing my diet, all sorts of things. So anyway, I'm sorry to drift away from that, what, what we were talking about, but clearly, you know, I think one of the Golden applications for Ambien IoT is empowering consumers to know where their food comes from, it's one of the biggest things we can do to make a difference. We recently hired our VP of climate, and Tony Yousefi, and he likes to say, we can eat up, we can eat our way out of climate change, it's probably not just eating the right things. But if we can eat food that does, has been grown in farms that are actually capturing carbon, rather than throwing it into the atmosphere, it can make a huge difference. And it turns out when you do that, you end up eating food that's really good for you and tastes better. So but how do you know where it's come from? And I think Ambien IoT can give people, you know, the full story of what how their where their foods come from, how it's been treated, what the carbon footprint is, how the land animals were retreated, and all that sort of thing. So, back to

    Charlotte Savage 21:46

    you. I totally agree with you. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I really love this topic, because I think regenerative farming is really important. And also, indoor farming a warehouses and city centers. You know, we've spoken a lot to, you know, indoor farming folks, and the importance of having sensors, you know, a lot of them right now, they still wire up all their sensors, because, you know, they don't really have any ultra low power wireless solutions. And, you know, a lot of the prospective clients and partners that we have right now, you know, use the bad word, we don't talk about batteries, you know, because no one wants to deal with ego, you have a sustainable company, you have a company that you care about the environment, you're trying to capture carbon, and then you have to have batteries and sensors, to you know, to create a better yield to to monitor the products that you're making. And it really is counterintuitive to what we're all trying to do. So I think that that's really amazing both on, you know, the accountability chain that we mentioned about where your food's coming from, what the temperature is, you know, how is it cared for along the entire process, you know, who's involved in that are people being paid appropriately along that line, too. And also, just, you know, transportation is one of the biggest pollution aspects too, and, and keeping it close, right, keeping it local. And I think that that's really important. And, you know, some of the smart farming applications that we looked at, you know, they're there already, there's Wi Fi that exists already, you know, you can imagine they want sensors below the leaf on top of the leaf, measuring, you know, circulation, measuring humidity, measuring temperature. So all these things are really important to have an optimal yield at the same time. So they're not creating waste to, you know, having pests come in, and you don't catch them fast enough. So they basically, you know, proliferated to the entire floor of tomatoes that you're growing, for example. So I think that there's so many applications that we could we could spend days talking about the importance of battery free sensing and what that enables for the consumer, for the corporation and for the planet as a whole, and the benefits that it could bring to us

    Steve Statler 23:46

    raising. So show that how did you end up starting your company? Tell us the founding story?

    Charlotte Savage 23:54

    Yeah, definitely. You know, so I studied engineering here in Montreal, Concordia University, I fell in love with biomedical applications. And I got a job at McGill University actually, working for chief doctor sorry, Dr. Ed Harvey, Chief orthopedic surgeon and McGill University and on the orthopedic side, and he was developing a product so a sensor that goes in the body reads sensor reads the pressure wirelessly, so surgeons know and did intervene. And I was one of the first you know, engineers on the team, you know, working on on on the prototype, so we had to go find, you know, a sensor on the market, find a radio on the market, do all our calculations to see what type of power management we're going to need, what type of power source and I was very naive at that time. I had just started engineering, I was like, we can use energy harvesting, like why are we using batteries? This is insanity. And they do all the calculations with the golden standard for ultra low power communication. And we needed a battery pack that was about this big, so like the same size as this demo, essentially. And there is a little sensor that would be inserted in your body and on the outside of your body, this big battery pack would be stuck for 48 hours. So, you know, from 48 hours to seven days, you have this stuck onto you. And then once you're finished at the hospital, the entire device, including the battery goes into hazardous waste. And that made me feel very sick to my stomach. And I started looking at, you know, the power consumption bottleneck and all IoT devices and the amount of batteries on all these wireless sensors and how they're completely discarded into waste after they're used. And I was like, This doesn't make sense, you know, I understand the fundamentals of energy harvesting, understand communication, but I you know, I was kind of halted at the power range of, you know, throughput triangle that were taught in engineering. But I knew that there had to be a better way, I knew that there was room for innovation room for improvement. So I started looking at all different types of, you know, establishments, academic literature, industrial literature, see what was out there, see how we can do better. And I actually met this German investor called Helge seats in at the McGill x one accelerator, so I was lucky. I was in the summer boot camp, which is amazing. They brought over 100 entrepreneurs from all around the world to educate me about obviously, being comfortable with failure, because that's the ongoing theme and entrepreneurship. And Hellgate was one of these investors that came, and I pitched to him this power consumption bottleneck, and, you know, medical implantables. And he was like Charlotte, you know, this is a problem across the spectrum. This is a solution that, you know, this is a problem that we can really find a good solution for. And he introduced me to. So if you don't know, tenem launch is known for their ability to license technologies from prolific universities around the world, they have an entire staff dedicated to this. So I was really lucky to enter this organization. And really, you know, look at all the different types of technology that we're working on this. And so there was some technology that came out of Stanford University, instead of creating the single app, the wireless device like Bluetooth did for my pressure sensor at the time, this technology actually leverages the existing infrastructure and P backs on top of it, which is passive backscatter. So that kind of defeated the laws of physics that were in my head about power, range and throughput. I'm like, this is incredible. So not only are we piggybacking off infrastructure that is powered, so you essentially, you know, you you're beaming power towards these sensors, so they don't need batteries. Well, in this technology, you're using existing infrastructure like Wi Fi. And I was like, wow, because gateways are definitely a massive bottleneck, for IoT to proliferate, to the numbers that it's been saying in market research for for decades now. So when I saw this technology from Stanford, I'm like, that's the solution. That's what's going to fix this. And, you know, obviously, there's a lot of other companies that were working on backscatter, but I really love this type of technology from Stanford, they utilize the existing infrastructure that didn't require gateways. And so essentially, you know, that's when Halo was born. So we ended up getting three exclusive patents, licenses for patents from Stanford University, how they put in $400,000 in convertible note at 10. And launch, you know, and what we ended up growing the team through all the different products, we actually raised 3.7 million USD 10 days before the pandemic was declared. So that was a journey in itself. You know, before that, we ended up doing a lot of different types of competitions, a lot of, you know, applications not nearly to funding to get some cash in the bank, we ended up winning the Open Innovation Award at Bell Labs, Nokia Bell Labs, which was huge, we actually were able to convince our first board member to come on as an advisor, Sam heidari. So Sam sold content to ons me a few years back, he's a leader in the Wi Fi space. So having him come on board to be our first technical adviser was massive. So after that, we closed our round of 3.7 million USD. You know, the, the COVID project was what you see over here. So we were able to do that, you know, ship it off to our partners, right before Christmas last year. And then we also did deep, deep application and diligence with sustainable development technology of Canada, we were granted $3 million in non dilutive funding to focus on these type of projects. So that was really wonderful. And since then, we've also raised another round about 5 million as another seed extension round. And we just been, we've been going forward, you know, just just trying to miniaturize our product, you know, get get the lifetime that we need work on requirements with our customers. And I think the the really the the biggest end goal is to get this out there, right and have this working in a real life environment.

    Steve Statler 29:28

    What can you say about the partners, customers that you're working with?

    Charlotte Savage 29:34

    So I can say that they're mostly in the building automation space, they're in the Wi Fi equipment makers, they're in the chipset makers and the sensor end users. So what's really beautiful and challenging about this technology is that is ecosystem play. We're helping all members of the ecosystem enable this for the battery free operation. That also comes with a challenge because means that you have to be handshaking nicely with everyone, which I I think our team is really capable of doing and I think the proof is in the pudding. And I think we're on our way there, which is really, really exciting.

    Steve Statler 30:09

    Yeah, I'm, I love this conversation. I'm thinking we've covered a lot. Is there anything else that you want to say before we wrap it?

    Charlotte Savage 30:19

    I think that we definitely covered, you know, the majority of it. And I think I just want to reiterate, you know, how wonderful it is to, to meet with you, Steve, and to continue working. And I know that in the 802 dot 11 app, we have an MCI and betas working, you know, side by side to get this technology out there. And I think that, you know, we mentioned a little bit about active transmit prior in our in our prep. And that's something that's really interesting also, so active transmit is, you know, a different version of backscatter where you don't necessarily need, you know, the, the full features to help get that ultra long coverage that we are discussing 802 dot 11. And, after transmit has potential to get a stepping stone to get to backscatter. So, backscatter really works well, in high density environments, high density sensor, high density Access Point environments, but on a stepping stone to have to getting their app to transmit may be a really great solution to showcase the importance of having the sensors out there, you know, will ultra low power communication for active transmit? And I think that's really interesting topic that I think is going to be flourishing over the next years alongside backscatter.

    Steve Statler 31:31

    Yeah. And in case people wondering, I was wondering whether to mention this. But so when the Williams approach is, is active, we, we actually, I remember when I joined the company age weight gym with the expectation that we were going to be using backscatter. And then we basically did a little technical pivot. And so all of our chips have been active, which basically means you can potentially take a weaker signal and accumulated over time, and then send a strongest signal out. What I think you've got a great video on your website that shows illustrates backscatter with the concept of signaling with a mirror where you take like a very bright signal like the sun and you reflect it back and the signals weaker, but you've re modulated it to go in the right direction. Probably haven't done your video justice, but I recommend that people go to your website website, which is HAIL a.io, just in case people are wondering. So Charlotte, got to the bottom of the show where you share three songs that have meaning to you. What was your choice?

    Charlotte Savage 32:55

    It was a really hard question, Steve. I think it was the hardest prep that I had for this podcast, because you know, narrowing it down to three songs. That's hard. So I think that you wanted me to relate them to times in my life. So I guess my first favorite song was a dream on by Aerosmith. And I used to listen to that song every single day coming home from school, you know, just thinking of what life is going to be like when I wasn't trout in the nine to five school system.

    Steve Statler 33:21

    Just remove the second one that was so where did you go to school?

    Charlotte Savage 33:24

    I went to school and Villa Maria in Montreal downtown. So not far, actually from our office right now.

    Steve Statler 33:30

    Okay, well, that sounds really nice. Yeah, it

    Charlotte Savage 33:33

    was really nice. It was actually an all girls Catholic school and being raised as an atheist. It was, it was definitely an interesting experience. But an amazing school with amazing physics froze programs and science programs. I was really lucky to have that type of exposure early on.

    Steve Statler 33:48

    All right, very good. Okay. So that's song one.

    Charlotte Savage 33:52

    And so song two is freeburn by Leonard Skinner. And although that was definitely a favorite, for me, maybe a little bit growing up past high school, you know, understanding what the world was about, and really being able to connect with my passions, and, you know, being able to really focus on what I love to do. And, you know, I guess that that was definitely physics and science for me.

    Steve Statler 34:15

    Alright, that's, that was definitely something that was played a lot when I was in college. So it's interesting that some good songs persists. Because I'm thinking that when you went to college and when I went to college flotek frontier, is it it's a great song. Definitely. And you've got great

    Charlotte Savage 34:33

    music. I mean, we have good music too, but I definitely like awesync rock.

    Steve Statler 34:37

    Yeah, in these very good and so what's number three?

    Charlotte Savage 34:41

    Number three is Here Comes the Sun by the Beatles. And I think that really relates to my entrepreneurial journey because as I'm sure you know, Steve, you know things things can get dark and cloudy sometimes. So always knowing that you know, the sunrise is the next day and always knowing that you can start fresh and new has been a really good Good perspective for me,

    Steve Statler 35:01

    well shawl. It's been a real pleasure. I know that we're going to stay in touch. And it's great to hear that our members of our team are working well together in the ambient IoT standards area. I really admire what you've done and congratulate you and I look forward to seeing you in person the next time our paths cross.

    Charlotte Savage 35:26

    Thank you so much, Steve. It's been a pleasure.

    Steve Statler 35:31

    So that was our conversation with with Charlotte. Amazing individual, and we need more people like that I think out there. I do recommend that you check out the website. And all the remains is to thank you for staying to the end to thank Aaron hammock for editing the episode. And stay safe, be happy. See you next time.