Mister Beacon Episode #54

Beacons in Museums – San Diego Museum of Art

October 11, 2017

Museums, despite being associated with the past, have been at the leading edge of Bluetooth beacon adoption. We visited Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt, COO of the San Diego Museum of Art and talked about what drove their investment in a beacon-enabled app, how they approached it and what the business benefits have been.

Transcript

  • Steve Statler 00:06

    Museums are by their very nature associated with the past. So it's surprising that they've been at the leading edge of Bluetooth beacon adoption. We're fortunate to have the San Diego Museum of Art on our doorstep. If we gave out awards for mobile application excellence, they'd be strong contenders for first prize. We spoke with DISA fincar, the chief operating officer of the museum and asked him about what drove their investment in a beacon enabled app, how they approached it, and what the business benefits have been. I hope you enjoy this very rare chance to get the perspective of a customer who's deploying beacon technology. Don't forget to subscribe to us on the Mr. Beacon website, YouTube, Facebook, or your favorite audio podcast platform. First of all, I should say thanks very much for doing this interview. It's I'm grateful for two reasons. One is this environment is just the best environment we've ever done an interview in. So thanks for that. And the other thing is, you're actually using the technology. And we we've been privileged, we've interviewed Cisco and HP and Google and a bunch of CEOs and very creative startup companies. But it all rests on who's actually going to deploy the technology and who's the customer and you're this amazing customer for beacon technology and other technology, we're going to talk about that you have a mobile app that has been really well thought through, incredibly well executed. And it really seems like museums are one of these verticals, these businesses that has adopted and embraced this technology. So what I'd like to do this morning is talk to you a bit about well, we should establish what the San Diego Museum of Art is how it fits into the San Diego community. But I really want to get into why have you invested in mobile? And what have you done? How did you do it? And what kind of results that you've seen. And I think that will be really helpful for entrepreneurs for solution designers to kind of get in the head of, of someone who's at the top of an organization and is having to make a choice on where you're going to spend your time and your money. Right?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 02:19

    That's absolutely right.

    Steve Statler 02:21

    So let's set the scene and tell us what so we're actually part of Balboa Park, aren't we? And so very quickly, like how many museums in Balboa Park?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 02:30

    There are believe at last count 17 museums in Balboa Park. They're 28 cultural institutions. And there are about 100 different organizations that are affiliated with Balboa Park in one shape or another. Balboa Park is a lot more than just the cultural institutions that sit here. And there's there's many others the golf course on the east side of Balboa Park. They're all the nature trails that exist, the swimming pool, the tennis courts in the northeast, part of Balboa Park. So there's a lot to Balboa park and you got the zoo as well. That's fun of exactly correct. So, Balboa Park is a unique location with just so much culture and arts, concentrated in one, one location that is easily accessible, people can walk around and experience natural history at 11am. And then come and experience world class art at 2pm. And in the middle, have lunch at one of the great restaurants here in Balboa Park.

    Steve Statler 03:26

    Well, I hats off to you, I have to say you have done some amazing work both in terms of the shows that you put on bringing mixing flowers and paintings and just just a sensory Marvel, but also what you've done with Panama 66. And we were coming in the back with the suit equipment. And we were walking past beer barrels, I have to say very good beer in those barrels.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 03:50

    Those are empty out on the loading dock. So you can't take any of those with you.

    Steve Statler 03:53

    Right, but but it's it really is an experience, I think coming here and it's so I with my family. Well, we'll enjoy the art and then we'll enjoy some amazing food and we'll sit out in the sculpture garden. So how many? Tell us a bit about the museum, just a thumbnail sketch.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 04:10

    So, the San Diego Museum of Art was founded in 1925. And we opened our door in 1926. So we've been around for 9192 years now. We welcome around 360,000 visitors per year to the museum, which has grown by about 70% in the last five years alone. So it's wonderful to see more people engaging with the art. We have about 18,000 works of art in our collection that ranges from old Spanish and Italian masters, northern Baroque painters, to American artists, sculptors, Chinese paintings, we have one of the most world's or have a world renowned collection of miniature Indian paintings from South South Asia. So it's quite a mix. And our collections range from 5000 BC all the way to the present day. So there's something for everyone and Um, we try and bring out as much as we can have the collection onto display. So at any given point, we have 700, to 800 works of art that people can engage interact with at the museum. And we have a committed Board of Trustees, we have about 65, docents who spend countless hours here educating the public, and they do it with a passion, they have to go through to your training program to be certified to be a docent at the museum. So truly committed people. We have very support councils that support the museum through their specific area of art, so Asian art or Indian art or contemporary art. So it's truly a museum of, of the community and for the community. We have some really spectacular events throughout the year, as you mentioned, art alive is one of those, it's in its 37th year, we turned the museum into a how do we want to ascribe an exhibition of florals where more than 100 floral artists come in and create these arrangements, based upon the works of art, that they are displaying their their floral arrangement in front of, so you have an opportunity to come in see the art in a very different light, interpreted from a very different angle as well. And if you're a member of the museum, you actually get to vote on first, second and third place. So that's always a fun activity for for members to come in, on the first day when our life opens.

    Steve Statler 06:31

    So why technology, though? I mean, it's you think about museums, and I think most people think of cobwebs and so forth. But you're investing in augmented reality and beacon technology, mobile apps. Why?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 06:46

    So we made a concerted effort. Three years ago, the museum was talking more more about its strategic plan, and we had a plan from 2008. We wanted to update that plan, refresh it, make it feel more in tune with the times. And there's been in the museum industry a big dialog as to what does the Museum of the 21st century look like? There are many different opinions on that. My background is with the in the Natural History World, I worked with the National Parks Conservation Association, and then with the American Museum of Natural History in New York. And what I saw when I came to the art museum here was this difference in in terms of how people were interacting with the museum itself, not not the objects inside, but with the museums. And in science centers and natural history museums, people are generally encouraged to ask questions, there is no silly question come in be curious, ask why a particular dinosaur ate this type of vegetation? Or what colors were dinosaurs? Do we even know if dinosaurs had colors? That sort of inquiry based learning is not as prevalent in art museums, and I draw up on my own experience, where if you haven't studied art history, it can be a bit intimidating to walk into a museum and ask those questions. So our thought process was how do we how do we create an experience that's opening, welcoming, welcoming, that's inspiring to people. And the board underwent a strategic planning exercise with the senior leadership team. And we changed our mission from a traditional to collect to preserve, to now to inspire, educate, and cultivate curiosity through great works of art. And that then trickled down into everything all the way into our performance reviews, our programming our exhibitions. So if you came to the museum four years ago, and you came now, it would be a completely different experience, technology, why technology, everyone nowadays carries a phone in their pocket, or most people do. It's a tool. It's not the it shouldn't be the sort of end all piece that's going to now revolutionize the the museum world. But it's, it's a tool that we need to utilize and starting with social media, how do we get people to actually come in, take a selfie in front of the painting and share that with friends.

    Steve Statler 09:05

    And you let them do that?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 09:07

    We let them do that. We don't have selfie stick. We don't allow selfie sticks, but we let people actually engage with the art. We don't allow flash photography. And there's certain paintings that we can allow people to take photos of just for rights and reproductions. But everything else that's in fair use in the public domain, we want people to actually engage with and take photos and share that with friends. Because when they do that, it means that they're connecting to the art in their own special way.

    Steve Statler 09:32

    And they're using the phone to do that. Correct.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 09:34

    Exactly. So then that natural leap to well, if people have phones in their pockets, how can we deliver content in a different way than we have previously? And when you walk around art museums and other thing that's a bit that we as art museums, have to try and figure out our balances. how much information do we put on walls? And usually what you might find is little wall panel that has the artists name, the name of the object, you know, and the artists lived. And that might be about it. So how can we deliver more content about the stories? And I say that because our upstairs galleries focus on paintings from the 1500s, and 1600s, all the way to the 1800s. That's a lot of years in human history. And think about all the wars, the famine, the boom times that those paintings have seen, much longer than any other human being has been alive for their their own personal life. So those stories, they're rich with stories. And there's not enough wall space to actually describe the stories. So we ended up speaking to an innovative company startup company here in San Diego and pitched this sort of concept of well, would they be interested in creating an app for the museum?

    Steve Statler 10:46

    So, this was guru says guru Exactly? How did you find them?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 10:51

    So kind of life has a way of working out in curious ways. And I was having a beer at our restaurant, Panama, 66, one evening. And this gentleman behind me, we were talking and turns out, his name is Paul Burke. He's the CEO and founder of guru, and they just finished the Balboa Park app. And I looked at him, I said, Paul, can you help us create an app? And he said, let's sit down and talk. And from there a really strong relationship developed?

    Steve Statler 11:17

    So was that after that strategic process that you described, or was it the thing that inspired it? Was concurrent to it?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 11:24

    It was sort of as the discussions were happening, we were also really seeking ways to embrace technology in different ways than our museum. But also other museums across the country embrace technology.

    Steve Statler 11:36

    So it sounds like you just found a partner who was willing to work with you. Had they done any museums before?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 11:42

    No, we were there first museum. And that was one of those moments where we said, well, we want to experiment with something. They want to experiment with something. Let's give it a shot. And that can some sometimes not go so well. But in this case, it was a home run.

    Steve Statler 11:58

    Yeah, I'm trying to think what is the lesson for an entrepreneur? How do they engage with more people like you I'm you've got an app, so then I'm probably not going to it's not going to work a second time? And is it like, just cuz that wasn't a cold call? That was just serendipity.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 12:13

    That's right. That's so maybe the the answer is to come and drink more beer at Panama? 66?

    Steve Statler 12:18

    I don't think so. I I think maybe if you just really start to inhabit the world of the customers that you want, then these things tend to happen.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 12:27

    Well, the great thing is Paul came to this. He was touring Italy, a couple of the museums, art museums in Italy with his, I believe, niece and nephew. And as they're walking through the galleries, Paul noticed that they these two youth were on their phones and with headsets in their ears. And he got very frustrated said, Why are you surfing the web while we're standing here in front of world class art, you should be looking at the art. And they looked at him and said, uncle, we're actually researching the art because there's not a lot of information on the walls. And that was a spark in Paul's mind to say maybe there isn't. There's a niche here. There's an untapped market. And he had done some work with apps at sports arenas and so on. So his first sort of foray into the cultural area was with the Balboa Park online, collaborative and Balboa Park. And as you say, the serendipitous meeting in Panama, 66 was just he had come to the table prepared, he knew what the sort of market was. And when the opportunity arose, he he knew how to address the subject. And I think that preparation made all the difference. Because if he hadn't had that experience, if he didn't really know what he was talking about, I think we probably would have looked the other direction. So it was, I think, the advice to an intrapreneur, cold calls are really tough, they, you know, you might get one out of 100 of those cold calls will succeed. So you definitely want to find an end through connection somehow. But you also have to deliver something that is a value to the organization and need to demonstrate that value, ideas, insight, empathy, some passion for it.

    Steve Statler 14:06

    Let's just talk a bit about demographics and your audience. And it seems like that's got to be another driver for this adoption of mobile. Can you talk to that?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 14:17

    Yeah, absolutely. So one of the questions that we were sort of debating internally, our member base tends to be of an older nature. And that's the case for a lot of art museums. And our thought was, how do we reach out to the younger audiences? We had a we have a program called kulturen cocktails, which happens four times a year have started in 2006. It attracts the 21 to 45 year old audiences, really excellent program. But we were seeking a different way. We wanted to find a way how to gauge the average gallery visitor and bring in younger audiences to the experience just to walk and roam the galleries. So this app, we thought, well, this might be very appealing to the millennial crowd. And what's really interesting is, although that has happened, what we've also seen is audiences of all ages have connected to the app. And we conduct monthly visitor feedback, exit surveys. And what we found is people who leave reviews, there was one, one situation where the couple came into the museum slightly older, she loved going to art museums, he dreaded it every time she dragged him along to an art museum, he would always sit on a bench at the entrance and wait for her. And he had this app at our museum. And suddenly, he was now the world open to it opened up to him, and he was able to look at curatorial videos that would guide them through the gallery that would tell him why the curator chose to hang a gallery in a certain way. Was it thematically chronologically, and what to pay attention to. And then with augmented reality, you were able to bring these paintings to life. And this elderly gentleman suddenly fell in love with the experience. And he wrote to us, he said, I'm looking forward to coming back to this museum. And I will look for other museums that have similar technologies to enrich my experience. So it's not just the younger audiences that are suddenly now saying, this is one way of connecting to the museum. It's a way for older audiences, to connect to the museum in perhaps a slightly different way.

    Steve Statler 16:27

    Well, I want to come back to that gentleman. But I'm going to interject a quick story of my own, our paths crossed when you agreed to participate in the panel that I was moderating at the Bluetooth SIG, which was really cool. And I remember, you gave me a tour of the museum before then, so we could kind of get to know each other. And I was just so enthusiastic. I mean, I like art, but actually hadn't hadn't been here on a regular basis. You showed me around, I'm like, talking to my wife, oh, look at battle, you know, they have all these drawings, and you can pull them out. And it was just, I was kind of quite giddy. But you can't do that with everyone, can you right. And so it really seems to me, this app is a way of, of, of engaging in storytelling and going beyond just the piece of art to establish the context and the story behind it. And you do a great job. So let's talk about the app. But before we do that, I just want to how do you get people to use the app because, you know, there's many, many people that develop mobile apps that never get used, and you don't just build it and hope that they're gonna come tell us a bit about how you get people to use it.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 17:39

    Right. And I think that that is perhaps the biggest lesson learned. You know, the, if you build it, they will come motto does not apply, doesn't apply to a lot of things in life, I've learned but especially not to this. So we conduct training with our frontline staff, or visitor relations team at the very front when you're purchasing a ticket. Or if you're member coming in, we remind people that this app is free to download. And it's part of your admission. So check it out, there's a lot more content in it, it's a bit, it acts as a digital map. Our gallery attendants that are in the galleries are all trained also on how to use the app. And if people have questions, for example, if perhaps their Wi Fi isn't turned on, or gallery, tenants will be able to help those visitors navigate the settings on on your phone or on your device that you're using. We also conduct some marketing efforts not to you know, a large level. But we we try and do some other creative ways of broadcasting the app. At certain conferences. Guru is, as I mentioned, one of our partners there all around the country. We're continuously touring people on the app, we make sure to tell as many people as we're going around San Diego about the app, our Director of Marketing Communications, had a really brilliant strategy and added a couple of our paintings that have the augmented reality experience to the back of our business cards. So if you meet with somebody at a luncheon, and you pull out your business card, and you use your phone, you can actually make that painting comfortable. That is a brilliant idea, right? So so just these really unique creative ways of trying to engage audiences.

    Steve Statler 19:19

    And just the basics. You have a picture of a phone next to every painting where you can get that background information. And it's just a constant reminder. And I think so. I think it's fantastic. And it's an example that I hope other institutions follow. But it really seems to me like the reason why you're able to do that is because you as the chief operating officer believe in this and you've staked state some of your reputation on it.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 19:47

    Well, yes, and it takes a team so my partner in crime, our Director of Marketing Communications, Carrie colback, she and I really from the beginning, we're working on this project together and talking to Roxanne of Alaska, sir Exactly. The director who was very much interested in this, she she kind of let us take the reins. And I think you know, not reluctantly, you know, perhaps all of us were a little nervous dipping our toe into this. But in the end, everyone's embrace this all the way from the top of the organization starting with our trustees down to the frontline staff and our curators have really embraced the the app as well. I know you and I've talked a little bit about some of the logistical challenges at the beginning, it was interesting to see how the traditional content providers of the museum were perhaps definitely more reluctant to embrace this technology, because there was a worry of dignifying perhaps the collection. And we were very sensitive to that we want to make sure that we weren't creating a just an entertainment venue, but there was if you want to use it, for lack of better terms, edutainment, and what what Another lesson learned here is, as soon as we were able to produce data and statistics on the usage, and what we find is that the average user who downloads the app uses it for an average of 66 minutes, that's a long time to actually try to it's an incredibly long time engaging with the art at the museum. And then more importantly, 57% of people who download the app, come back to it the following week. That's another huge statistic that is really important for us. And then everything that follows from which works of art were most viewed, most liked, shared, there's so there's a wealth of information here that we've now been able to communicate to the curators. And it's not to say that they're going to change their direction on what they want to display or how they curate an exhibition. But it gives them a bit more insight into what's popular, and perhaps what's not so popular. And that in and of itself is hugely important if we're trying to connect to audiences.

    Steve Statler 21:56

    And I think we've kind of touched on this, but let's just make sure people understand what is it that they can do in the app. What, what are the functions?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 22:04

    There's a variety of different things, there's two different modes. Let's start with that when you're at the museum, and when you're not at the museum. And so the app has different look and feel to it, you can still explore the same amount of content, but in different ways. So when you're at the museum, it's quite simple to navigate, you can check on what's nearby. And that works off of the beacon technology. So if you're if you happen to be in gallery, let's say for and you're looking, you're standing in front of a painting, and you click on what's nearby, the app will be able to identify exactly which works of art in close proximity to you based upon the beacon beacon technology. And then that content, you can read through it, you can look at videos, if there are any videos about that work of art, you can read about the introduction to the work of art, the artist, what's relevant about the artist, if there are any objects in the collection that relate to that object, you can look at images as well. So there especially as I described before, the upstairs galleries, there's some really interesting stories, some paintings that have changed over the last 400 years, for a variety of reasons. And you can see the before and after pictures of those paintings, how they were properly conserved. So there's a lot of content to engage with. There's also a tour feature where if you're coming in alone, or let's say you're here with a friend or a date, you can both pop your earbuds into into your ears and then walk around and have the app guide you on a on a tour through the museum. There are kids, scavenger hunts. So there are activities for young children as well as adults. So there's a wealth again, a wealth of activities that you can engage with in the app. The augmented reality piece is another thing where we now have five, five works of art that are on view that have this augmented reality feature where you can go up to a painting, and you can hold up your phone and the painting will come to life. And what we're trying to communicate with that is what the artist might have seen while they were standing in front of this particular scene, painting this landscape or whatever it might be. So in Monet's case, we have a Monet that was purchased in 1982. The title of the painting is the haystacks at Shaylee. And Monet loved to paint these haystacks in his sort of residents, residential area. And he loved playing with different colors during different times of day. So in discussion, the team felt well what if we could create this augmented reality experience where this painting goes through a 24 hour time cycle? So you hold your phone up? The painting starts off, you get crickets, then it gets dark. It's a night scene. You see little lights in the village off in the distance, and then the sun rises and you hear a rooster crowing in the background.

    Steve Statler 25:00

    So augmented reality. Sounds like you had to persuade some folks that this was a good idea that to avoid the Disney Disneyfication.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 25:10

    Right, right, exactly. And that was a, it's that just happens in a room where we sit down and have a honest heart to heart discussion as to what it is that we want to create. And you know, at the end, it was fantastic to have the curators actually participate in this and make suggestions on their own, on how to enhance the augmented reality feature. So we are in a really great place right now.

    Steve Statler 25:34

    That's fantastic. So it sounds like you've got an experience that competes with sitting at home and the iPad and the the high definition television, you're getting data. And you have a way of engaging with not just the new generation, but segments of the older generation that need another way of getting to this. This has just been an amazing, it's an amazing discussion, I'd love to spend more time since since we started talking, I've joined because it's just a great, I really recommend that other people do that. So tell us a little bit about some of the challenges with beacons and the logistics associated with putting these radios next to painting. Yep.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 26:18

    So one of the concerns there was with the beacons was how they would adhere to the walls and the adhesive stick. If you think of it that way, it's very, we want to be very cautious that things aren't falling on visitors or onto paintings as well. So we had to make sure that the adhesive was proper, we had to make sure that the beacons themselves were sort of fit into the background to blend it off into the background. So we had to paint a couple of the beacons because color options weren't that readily available. We also had to make sure that we were setting up a proper grid so that we would have the right frequency in each gallery. So there was some challenges we had to overcome at the beginning. But I think we're now in a really great place. And Google has been working with those beacon beacon technology providers.

    Steve Statler 27:03

    To think you're using like Estimote beacons with 20 Galleries?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 27:08

    You know, it's a good question. I think we're at about 120 beacons or something of that somewhere around there. So yeah, there's a lot around the museum.

    Steve Statler 27:15

    Yeah, there's a lot of beacons. And I think the vendor is actually this polish vendor called Estimote. That's that. That was my understanding from talking to Paul. So I mean, it's great that you got a partner that can worry about that. And I'm impressed that you're actually very on top of what some of those challenges are in getting the technology to work. And so you don't actually see beacons when you're walking around the crack?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 27:41

    You could find them if you looked hard, but they blend into the background. And that's the beauty of them that they weren't they're very functional. The battery life now I think, is four years on the newer, the newer technology and the newer beacons. And that makes a huge difference for us, because then we don't have to go in and constantly update them or change them out.

    Steve Statler 27:59

    So is this the way museums are going? Or other museums doing this?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 28:04

    Other museums are experimenting with this as well? Yes? And is it the way that museums are going? I think in this day and age, we constantly have to reinvent ourselves? I say that because back in 2010 2011, there was this notion that QR codes, were going to revolutionize the museum industry. And I even questioned a lot of people to ask them, Do you even know what a QR code is? So I think we just need to be on top of it and consistently reinvent ourselves so that we are providing the best visitor experience and also making art as accessible as possible.

    Steve Statler 28:36

    Fantastic. I think you've done that. These are thanks very much for making it accessible to us.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 28:41

    Thank you. Great talking to you today.

    Steve Statler 28:49

    What are the three songs that you would take on a mission to Mars?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 28:53

    Yeah, so it's an interesting question, because I have sticking a little bit about it. And there's a funny backstory kind of a parallel story this after grad school, a few friends of mine, we always went met up every month to go to the SATA. And we went from 530 to 11 o'clock inevitably, would always eat at the end of the night. And there was one moment where we were talking about what if we had to move permanently to Mars, what three foods would you bring along? And right out the gate? I said, Cheerios, a bowl of Cheerios and milk. And so they continue to make fun of me.

    Steve Statler 29:26

    About that, but you have to live with that because your life is my life.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 29:29

    So I like it. So just kind of thinking about the songs and for me what, what touches me is most are those experiences that you have in life that you just take take with you and you reflect upon. So the first song would be stings, if I ever lose my faith in you. It was the high school graduation song.

    Steve Statler 29:50

    Where did you go to high school in Vienna, Austria? Add a little bit more atmosphere, that's pretty cool, right?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 29:56

    It says about 62 people in the class and it was really a tight, tight knit community. I'm still very close with a lot of those people. And that song just means a lot to me. The second song is journeys. Don't stop believing. That's also a meaningful song to me on the family side where my son plays the piano. It's was his real first song that he learned how to play. Oh, awesome. Yeah, my wife took me to the Rock of Ages musical in New York City for my 38th birthday. And that was a memory that song obviously plays, you know, features prominently in that musical. And then the third song is a song that takes me back to my heritage to Austria band named STS and they sing a song called course father, which is grandfather, and it talks about memories of this individual's grandfather, and how that influenced his life. So it's a good mix of three different songs a little rock definitely was thinking, Should I mix a little classical into there or I grew up with heavy metal poison, you know, Motley Crue. But those three, three songs really.

    Steve Statler 31:02

    So much, so much to choose from. And just tell me briefly where you grew up. So you grew up in Austria, but you've traveled a lot.

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 31:11

    So my father was an international banker, and I grew up in Brazil, Chile, Austria in the United States, and then came to the United States for college, was up in Boston, lived in New York City for about 15 years, and then came out to San Diego four years ago.

    Steve Statler 31:26

    So all around, and how did you get to become the chief operating officer of San Diego Museum of Art?

    Dieter Fenkart-Fröschlt 31:32

    I asked myself that same question every day. No, it's I, if you had asked me six, seven years ago, where I'd be today, I wouldn't be able to answer that question. I think that's the beauty of life that we have certain goals that we set, and life just gets in the way of those goals. This opportunity came along at a time when I was looking to grow. And I met Roxanne of Alaska is the executive director here. And she had really big visions for the museum. And I got really excited about what the possibilities were to take a museum that had kind of fallen a bit into a bit of a sleeping environment and, and we wanted to take it to the next level and really have people connect with the arts make art more accessible in the San Diego community, do some creative things on the technology side, but also with the art, how do we display it? How do we get people to engage with it? So it was sort of a good fortune. And I'm thankful that the museum and Roxanna Tikka took a risk on me.

    Steve Statler 32:27

    Yeah, me too. Otherwise, we wouldn't have this amazing coming together of beautiful art and put some pretty amazing technology. So I'm glad you made that choice. Thank you.