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Mister Beacon Episode #86

Connecting IoT Devices with Bluetooth & Blockchain

February 15, 2019

This week on Mr. Beacon, we talk to Micha Benoliel, CEO of Nodle, a connectivity provider for the Internet of Things. Nodle has an impressive 4.3 million active nodes, and 78 million IoT devices connected to date. Nodle has built and continues to grow a network, based on Bluetooth Low Energy, that connects devices and collects their data. They have a unique approach of leveraging smartphone infrastructure to create availability for the network, crowdsourcing connectivity as Micha puts it. In this episode, we talk about the evolution of the Bluetooth and Wi-Fi standards, as well as dive into how blockchain can enable this network and data to scale while offering protection and privacy to its contributors.


  • Narration 0:07

    The Mr. Beacon podcast is sponsored by Wiliot, scaling IoT with battery free Bluetooth.

    Steve Statler 0:16

    So welcome to the podcast this week, we are interviewing Micha Benoliel who's the co founder and CEO of Nodle. So Micha, thanks very much for joining us on the podcast.

    Micha Benoliel 0:30

    Well, thank you, Steve, for having me. On your show.

    Steve Statler 0:34

    Yeah. Well, I think you've got a lot of really interesting things to talk about. And it's a potpourri of like, very interesting concepts and technologies from, of course, our home territory, which is Bluetooth IoT, blockchain and networking concepts. And of course, you very experienced in the startup space, and in terms of building networks with open garden and fire chat, the the peer to peer, social network, but this is a different kind of network. Can you explain to us a little bit about, about what normal does?

    Micha Benoliel 1:14

    Sure. So at No, we I mean, the long term vision is really to build a wireless network that basically has no hardware, no infrastructure, no antenna, no towers. And the vision is really to make this wireless network available everywhere. And today, we do it using this fantastic wireless interface, which is Bluetooth low energy, we believe it's a great standard, Bluetooth took many years to become stable. And finally, we have this Bluetooth low energy that's very stable. And that enables us to do amazing things and any actually manufacture also, because today, I think Bluetooth Low Energy is shipped on more than 50% of all IoT devices out there.

    Steve Statler 2:00

    So huge coverage. And

    Micha Benoliel 2:04

    so the way we do we make this network available is pretty unique. We leverage what I call the smartphone infrastructure. And so we put a piece of software, which is a smaller networking library on has many smartphone has, we can through partners, or people who use for apps. And that way we create availability for this network. And any IoT device that in proximity of one of these smartphones basically can send back information to the internet very easily, or connect to the internet through one of these smartphones. So using a smartphone, like a gateway or a router or a hotspot for IoT, if you want.

    Steve Statler 2:45

    And these connections with IoT devices via this library that is in partners apps, presumably these are like, this is a monetization technique for people that are developing free apps, they get some reward some value back from you, we'll go into how that works later. But you know, what, typically, what is that library doing? When it talks to these IoT devices? What are some of the practical applications,

    Micha Benoliel 3:16

    so then the library is doing two major things. One, it's listening for any IoT device that will be in proximity from the phone. If the IoT device, which could be your sensor, tracker in the if you take the vertical of asset tracking. So basically, this sensor or IoT devices, broadcasting information, information can be an identity. Information can be measurements from the sensor for temperature, for example, then we capture the data, and we deliver it, we'll tag it with the location and the time stamp and send it back to the cloud. And there. If we recognize that this information has been purchased by the owner of the device, or the manufacturer itself, then we send back that information to the to the manufacturer. So technically, you could consider it's almost like a DNS for IoT devices, what we do, and it can be just one way communication, which brings already a lot of utility. Or it can be two way communications. In the case of one way communication, we are using the traditional way to stand out so there's no need for the manufacturer of the device to change anything to their device. If that device wants to connect now to the internet and exchange information with internet the device we need to have for protocol installed on the IoT device.

    Steve Statler 4:44

    Okay, and what what is the protocol that it would take? So presumably, the first piece which is just kind of identity, and maybe some status is you're just using a standard Bluetooth advertising packet. Are you is that the

    Micha Benoliel 4:58

    is that that's correct. That's quite a British Standard has actually very well. There's a nomenclature for how you structure the data when you're in your advertisement. And we just follow the guidelines and what's public on the Bluetooth standard. So you can it can do data does broadcast, it can be measurements of it can be like, just a measurement for a meter, for example, but it can also be temperature, or any other information that sensors will come up with collect. And this is very well structured and organized. And then we just calculated that that information at advertisement, and send it back to the manufacturer. So that way, we can create also, heat maps, that will display that information on a map. For example, if it's temperature, you will be able to map where you can see all the different measurements in of temperature in the city or across a country, in the case of pollution sensors, for example, will be able to to, to, to display the quality of the air in different places around the city or a whole country. And it's pretty powerful, especially with the method we use, which is that like kind of crowdsourcing this connectivity through people's smartphones, we can cover very large areas very quickly. And since we started to deploy the network, we have almost arrived to we were focused in the US first. And we almost have now like a nationwide coverage in the US with more than 1 million daily active smartphones, connecting to IoT devices every day. So it's it's a, it's a good start and pretty encouraging. And we believe that in 18 months from now, we can probably be global. And that will be amazing, because it will be the first truly global IoT network or network dedicated to IoT. And what it means it means that once we are global, with this kind of network, there is no roaming also. So for a manufacturer or someone who operates sensors or IoT devices, now you can have one one entity you can talk to that will be able to connect or collect data from all your devices across all borders globally. And then we can do that at a very efficient cost also, because we are fully software. But it's

    Steve Statler 7:25

    kind of a stochastic, opportunistic, non deterministic connection, you're kind of hoping that the odds are that you have enough of your libraries in these apps that the coverage will will be there as a people do you think that's viable? Are people willing to accept? You know, the alternative is you have some narrowband IoT LTE radio in there, which is obviously more expensive, and connections more expensive, but you kind of know you're getting a connection is this? Is this approach kind of viable when you you don't necessarily know that you are going to get the data back?

    Micha Benoliel 8:10

    So it's a very good question. And many people come to us when they stopped to know about what we do is that we that question, which is very relevant. So first, what we do and what we are sending is what we call delayed network. So we can collect data for your own devices, from your devices, but we don't guarantee that this is going to be a real time connection. And when you look at the space of IoT, you actually don't really need real time connection all the time, because in the case of measurements, I mean, the sensor can wait before sending you some data that a value that is measured in whether it's temperature, whether it's a position sensor for measuring the quality of the air, there's no there's no big like, hard deadline to basically receive that information. So when you look at the use case of delay around actually the it's already most of the use cases that narrowband IoT, wireless solutions are family competitive solutions are trying to cover, then you are spot on when you say about the cost, I mean, that we'll have the choice whether you have a cellular module that you're going to add to your device, which will give you a real time connectivity. But then you have other issues, you have issues of battery consumption. Bluetooth Low Energy is an amazing standard. It's an amazing radio wireless interface, which consumes very little energy. You can have a sensor run on a very small lithium battery for years with this technology, and you cannot achieve that with any other alternative especially if you are a city law module. Then when you build IoT devices and you want Do you want to basically connect the devices to the Internet, sometimes you're going to build a device that cost a few dollars $10 $15. And you cannot afford to have a cellular module attached to your device, because it will, it will take the cost so much high that it will make no sense basically to to build this device. And so what we are trying to achieve here is really to make connectivity has cheap as possible. So anything can be connected or reporting data to the internet in a very easy, easy, easy manner.

    Steve Statler 10:34

    I think there's a lot of use cases where this approach is viable. And it's something that we're very interested in from the affiliate side as well as the Mr. Beacon market prognostication perspective. So let's just finish off, I just want to round out the the understanding of the protocol. So you're sending advertising packets? What about like an iBeacon? Could an iBeacon be used? If a device is sending that would that be readable? It seems like that would have the advantage of waking up the the app that might be in the background? How isn't iBeacon a viable format.

    Micha Benoliel 11:20

    So iBeacon can can work. And in the case of the boatswain, connectivity, you know, an IoT device could be waking up, basically, one of four smartphones, participating into the network, and then shake hands with domestically with a smartphone and connect to the internet.

    Steve Statler 11:38

    So what are the connections? So are you establishing a connection with certain devices that wanted is it does it escalate? or migrate into a connection orientated conversation?

    Micha Benoliel 11:53

    If the if the device has the protocol, yes, it can shake hands seamlessly and and then connect to the internet. I mean, this can be very useful if you want to update the firmware, for example. Because the device can can ping a smartphone and then shake, shake hands connect and check if there is an update for its firmware. And so that's 111 thing we can do with this kind of network.

    Steve Statler 12:19

    And what protocols do you support? Or do you plan to support in order to have that connection orientated conversation.

    Micha Benoliel 12:30

    So for now, we only focus on Bluetooth. But we look at other alternatives in the future. I mean, the Wi Fi standard is also evolving pretty well. And it looks like that, soon, it's going to behave a little bit like Bluetooth low energy in the next update. So if that's where the industry is moving towards, then that will be amazing, because we will also be able to support Wi Fi, which even if it consumes a bit more battery, can enable you to move much more data. So it's, it's, yeah, we hope that Wi Fi will go into the direction. And I think Bluetooth standard has done an amazing job. It's evolving pretty well, we are just at the beginning of all the possibilities. The next evolution of Bluetooth is also including mesh capabilities. And what we do today, we don't even use mesh, I mean, we just do a peer to peer point to point connection from an IoT device to a smartphone that is related to the internet. But with mesh, if most manufacturer adopt the Bluetooth mesh network that that means that the data that's moved to the internet can basically have hopped on more devices before quicker to connect your smartphone. And potentially maybe your smartphone is also connecting to another one that has access to Wi Fi. So it's it's pretty exciting, I think the the evolution of the standard is a is really powerful and will enable so many use cases in the future. And you are very well positioned with will IoT also I think for any any any and you know that and I'm just dreaming of the day when and I think it's gonna happen sooner than we think when almost every small object or items that has some value will be able to be just in the asset tracking be tracked with one of the small BLE solution like the one you are working on, because that means now you can do the job of DHL being an individual almost

    Steve Statler 14:38

    Well, yeah.

    Micha Benoliel 14:41

    efficiencies that is going to to enable in terms of the supply chain industry logistics and even for for everyone's on day life is going to make life so much easier for a lot of things in her life. Obviously it raises also many challenges in terms of privacy and how you deal with all these identities moving. But I think these are good challenges to solve. And that's among the opportunities we have when we work in this industry. And we are, where we want to make it. Like we want to create more that are more information that's usable and actionable. And at the same time, really reduce the exposure of, of people while manipulating all these identities, but I think it's a hazard because we are all aware of that and build an infrastructure and technologies that that can move and use that data, being aware of the implication of privacy, then we can, we can move the things in the right direction. I'm a big fan of what I call zero knowledge analytics. And I think that's one of the solutions meaning. So we some cryptography, cryptographic protocols, now you can almost like have an amount of data query that data display display a representation of that data, which is not tied to one single entity or identity, but have a large representation that I think that's where it's useful to play with that data. And at the same time, enable someone to query that that with, without even knowing this single identity of each of the devices participating in the, in the representation of the data. And with cryptography, you can enable that real identity to be discovered only by the owner of the device, for example, or the manufacturer. So you can enable so many things. The domain challenges are how do you scale this technology, where you can at the same time, use the data and protect basically the privacy of everyone at very large scale. And these are the challenges we are facing now. But I think blockchain is bringing some solutions, interesting solutions. And what I call also the democratic creation of cryptography will only allow this to happen. So we live in very exciting times.

    Steve Statler 16:58

    We do let's let's get onto blockchain in just a second. But before we go there at a at a more basic level, you are building this network, and you're leveraging the fact that we all have free apps on our phone, we didn't pay for them. And these companies need to make money somehow. And in the past, they put up these obnoxious interstitial ads that kind of got in the way. And I guess what you're doing is you're offering an alternative way for someone that's written a solitaire app or a sudoku app to monetize their, their app. Is that a fair? Summary?

    Micha Benoliel 17:40

    Yeah, yeah, this is your first somebody. So what we do exactly is we incentivize the adoption of the library by rewarding the participant in the network, which today are app developers mainly. But tomorrow, they could be potentially also individuals. And we, we basically give a weight to each packet that they move through their device, which is based on several criteria. And from there, we will walk them with points that are translated into her cryptocurrency called the noodle coin. And that's how we want the people participating in the network. And I mean, we thought technologies like blockchain, we wouldn't be able to, to build this kind of, of incentive. So it's a it's a, it's a very good way to actually spark the network. Because before we decided to go for that solution, we looked at other ways to spark such network. And so we try with her own app. But today, I mean, it's not the time when I was making fire chat, for example, where you could get a million installs in, in a week. I mean, these days are gone unless you have like, huge marketing budget and, or an extraordinarily useful app that basically arrives on the market. So you have to, to spark the adoption of the network by partnering. That's what we do with other app developers that have this presence. And if you go to the large players, they will all ask you for a huge amount of money to do that upfront. So with this mechanism of incentive, using the noodle coin and the blockchain which register each of the transaction basically that are happening on network so all the participant can easily see what's happening and they can understand why they got rewarded this amount of coins for example, in a very transparent manner. And even better is by doing so you avoid all this complex accounting of what do you owe to who How do you pay each person, all that is happening automatically syncs to the to the distress lead system built on top of a blockchain technology.

    Steve Statler 19:45

    But couldn't you simply pay people in fractions of $1 of a cent? I mean, it's, is it really necessary to include this blockchain technology because on one hand that I can see, there may be some advantages, but you're suddenly dealing in a currency that people are not very familiar with, you must have done the kind of the pros and cons of, of dealing, creating your own currency versus one that is pretty well understood and accepted. What were the pros and cons when you looked at that?

    Micha Benoliel 20:23

    So it's a very good question. And we sold a lot about this. But for for people in the ecosystem, if you're a manufacturer, and you want to benefit from the network, I mean, you can pay in fiat currency. But what will happen, technically, this money would be sent to an exchange that we credit your account with, with no other coins, and then from there, it's kind of a prepaid account. And as you use the network, your, your credit goes down. So there's no change mainly for people in the industry. And, and you're right, I mean, I mean, cryptocurrencies are still pretty new, especially in the b2b space, you don't want to slow down the adoption of the network, because people will have to change the, or understand how it works. So you don't want to disrupt too much the business, the usual business processes. And that's why we partner with other platforms that basically which is the job to, to basically translate this crypto, this fiat currency into into cryptocurrency,

    Steve Statler 21:25

    okay, so at the end of the day, if you want to, you can pay for this connectivity, if you're a device manufacturer you can pay with, with dollars, and there'll be a conversion into, into your currency. And if you're an app developer, then you can turn it into dollars as well. So this is kind of a intermediate step that you're introducing.

    Micha Benoliel 21:53

    Yes, but there are a lot of advantages in having also a currency to reinforce the ecosystem. And, and the fact that we use blockchain technology, you have very fast settlement very fast exchange of, of value across the globe. And, and like I mentioned earlier, you you also simplifies a lot of the aspects of the traditional accounting that are so heavy when you run an organization that's International and has presence in so many countries. So, even if now we are focusing the US, we already have a spark of a network in more than 50 countries, imagine if we had to deal with I mean, each of these countries local currency, and specific method of accounting, I mean, it would be such a such a word, we will have to, at some point, you have a whole department of the company with just doing that job. And, and because of the blockchain and basically this, this, this ledger, you can enable the settlement to happen automatically, across parties that don't necessarily trust each other. Now you create a layer where they can trust each other, and they can audit what's happening. So they know what they got rewarded, they know what they paid for what's going. So it's it's very transparent way to do business to which brings a lot of advantages.

    Steve Statler 23:17

    Do I have to worry about fluctuating values in your currency? That's, that sort of introduces another level of volatility, doesn't it?

    Micha Benoliel 23:30

    So yeah, it's a it's a good point. And I think we will see how how the currency behaves once it is issued for now, we we are at the stage where we are dealing with points. And to prove the system, which is working, we will certainly have to deal with this, this level of I mean a fluctuation. But the way we're going to price the services is also independent from the from the fluctuation of the currency, because you, you want to have a network that remains very competitive. And so that's why we have all kinds of our own internal currency on points, which is a accounting of all the packets that are moved and then you have the cryptocurrency, which is the the economical, I mean, the the value that represents basically, the access to today's work. So it's a where we are able to play with that.

    Steve Statler 24:28

    I know entrepreneurs hate to talk about pricing, it's a very sensitive thing. And it tends to be something that evolves over time as you get to understand more about the world that you're creating. But can you give us a rough sense of if I'm, if I'm a device manufacturer, and let's say I'm putting let's say I'm putting Bluetooth tags on point of sale materials, you know, those end caps and those signs that are on Share? elves, and I want to I'm a brand I'm, I'm a, I make some kind of alcoholic spirits, and I'm paying these retailers to put these displays out there in the supermarkets. And I want to know, did the display, you know, paid for the displays to go out there, did you the retailer put them out. And so I want this network of, of apps to look for these beacons in all of the safe ways and Albertsons and so forth to to know if they actually got deployed? What, you know, what are the economics of that? Roughly? Not precisely, but roughly, how much is it going to cost me for, for that sort of thing? And on the flip side? Because obviously, you know, the right answer is it's going to be incredibly cheap. But the flip side is the app developer wants to get money for that. So roughly, what what should the app developer expect to get paid? And what should the brand expect to pay you for the for that sort of use case? Is that a reasonable use case for your network to be used for? Maybe I'm not picking a good example. But

    Micha Benoliel 26:10

    so we actually what we do use case you mentioned is currently under test. And before I dive into that, I mean, it's a very good question. And, and there will be, I mean, very open about it, we know we will have to price things differently according to the verticals. And we have some ideas of what a market can support in terms of pricing, we also know that we are creating new opportunities, and because before people wouldn't be able to afford connectivity, and now because of this technology, they will be able to connect their devices. So I think it's going to take us a lot of time to figure out the right pricing. But to give you an example, so in the in the use case, you mentioned we actually work with Fortune 500 company called Constellation Brands, they are a large distributor of alcohol, and through the brands like Corona in the US. And so they have these displays that cost them I mean a lot of money, I think that their budget for displays to support the brands in retail store is more than $10 million of actually, of displays. So they they want to know how useful it is for for their brand and for for optimizing the sales basically, if these displays that I send all over the United States are being used by the distributors and retailers to support the brands. And so they, they actually decided to attach a small tracker to these displays. And and we provide the network. So that's a very kind of new use case, still in the asset tracking space, but which basically shows all the things that you can enable when you can have a chip tracker and attach it to to an item. And so in that specific use case, I think you have to be looking at the cost of the of the tracker. And an activity, I mean, cannot be more expensive than what it costs to have a tracker. And that's why in their use case, they looked at other alternatives like cellular connectivity, and they quickly realized that, I mean, it would cost so much money to do it, right. So they needed to find a new solution, which also is adapted to their business model. And so British practice is a fantastic solution. And so just to give you an idea of pricing, I think, if you if you were to use Stryker, that cost between five to $10 to add to an items, and you know, this is going to leave for at least a year on a very small lithium battery. I mean, I mean the cost of connectivity cannot be more than I would say like 10 cents a month. So, that's just to give you just to give you an idea and and in whole whole case, the cost of connectivity. I mean it's I think it will take also a time to establish what it really costs to to move a packet from a beacon or an advertisement. And and if we deal with some people who use that solution for replacing a city llama you and I can give you the example of scooters I mean bike sharing. If you if you have a bike sharing business and you put a city law module on your luck to locate your bikes and to lock and unlock the bikes, while for according to your calculations for 1 million bikes that you operate, you're going to have an operating expense of probably close to $50 million a year. Uh, now in that specific use case, it would be, it wouldn't be right to to to basically price, the same way distribution the same way we would price a smaller wheel IoT sticker to be located. So so we know that if we replace the sale module with a Bluetooth chipset and, and maybe some also physical element on the bike to, which would be like a hardware wallet to basically authenticate and enable the transactions to happen. I mean, we could bring down the cost the overall cost you probably a few million dollars a year. So it's it's a huge saving for companies that are operating these bikes.

    Steve Statler 30:48

    But the challenge you have though, is every time you make the cost of connectivity cheaper, you have less money to reward the, you know, the the writer of the solitaire app or the study QR?

    Micha Benoliel 31:00

    Well, I'm not that I mean, in this specific use case, they weren't making money out of connectivity at all before. So it's, it's all up. So we are creating a new alternative source of revenues for app developers who participate into the network. without impacting the user experience. I mean, it's not like when you have an ad that comes in shows up on your screen, you don't need that. And without impacting also privacy of users. Because we are not like some of the SDKs that's going to resell your personal data to another company or advertisement advertising company. That's not for business. So we we actually only interested in the the data that was on the phone that is broadcasted by IoT devices, we're not interested in the person carrying that phone. So we create basically a way for app developers to make money without sending user data without impacting user experience. And it only takes three minutes for an app developer to add a whole library into their app. And then after they have two ways they can have also no team. So we have a use case with one of the partners were in exchange for accepting to participate in what we call the citizen network, then the user can use the app without ads for a couple of days. And so it's really a new way to monetize for app developers. And and so far, I think we it's only the beginning, we struggled a lot to how to pitch it to app developers first. But we are getting a bit better at that. And we have almost like 15 mobile applications now that are using the library. And but the goal is to be on 1000s. Because you want to create a very long tail of app developers, you don't want to be dependent on just one or two big players.

    Steve Statler 32:48

    What kind of app developers do you find opting for, for using this?

    Micha Benoliel 32:54

    So it ranges from people in the industry who already use Bluetooth on their phone on their app manufacturers themselves? Who have an app to control the device or to do to communicate with the device. So manufacturers of hardware, people in the social networking space with apps like messaging to ranges from Yes, from messaging to dating apps. And, and we are looking also at the vertical of games now. So that's, that's basically the kind of mobile applications that are embedding the library.

    Steve Statler 33:33

    And we've talked about a couple of examples where this would be useful. Can you just give me one or two others of where, you know, what are the applications for monitoring we did the bikes we did the point of sale materials, anything else that you see as being a key fit with what you're doing?

    Micha Benoliel 33:55

    Wow. Well, any, any sensor data for smart cities, like pollution trackers, for example, is a great application and a great use of this kind of network where you can have citizens citizens of the city collecting data for improving information to the older citizens in the city. So the use case with smart cities are numerous. And and from there, you can go down to also metering I mean, and metering can be you could imagine in the future that a car also with the park and pay the meter automatically using this new cryptocurrency and that the car could potentially also pay for getting more energy automatically. And so that's that's the kind of use cases we see in the future. It's going to take time, obviously. But before we get there, I think the use cases for for in the asset tracking space are I mean, it's such a huge business and we are just discovering and scratching the surface. They're

    Steve Statler 34:58

    very Good, well, this, I can talk to you for hours. But this has been wonderful. Misha, thanks so much. And we're really gonna look closely at what you guys are doing with novel. And hopefully we'll be working together in the future.

    Micha Benoliel 35:14

    Well, thank you so much TV, we're also looking forward to working with you and, and growing the space and the number of use cases. But I think we were up for some great times together. Thank you.

    Steve Statler 35:25

    Very good, all the best.

    Micha Benoliel 35:33

    I have a very eclectic stays in music even produced or participated in some songs, but I have one actually, you can find on iTunes. All right, which was better, I met with friends. And when we were all having a big party in central Bay, and actually I made a song out of it, and you can buy it or listen to it on iTunes.

    Steve Statler 35:56

    You can what's it called?

    Micha Benoliel 35:58

    It's called bubbles. It's about champagne.

    Steve Statler 36:02

    It's bubbles and what would the you know, who's it attributed to? Did you have a name for the group? Or?

    Micha Benoliel 36:08

    No, if you just type my first name and last name and bubbles, you will find it out. And it's not a fantastic song. But I think I had a lot of fun to to make it and and it was a bet with my very close friend from South of France. And I made it so I want my bed. That was the goal.

    Steve Statler 36:29

    Beautiful. That's that's that's the first so you know, the the construct is the three songs you'd take on a on a trip to Mars? Obviously, that's one of them. What are the other two? Well, I

    Micha Benoliel 36:41

    don't know if I would take my song even if it's a very funny one. A lyric. So a bit crazy. But I will certainly take a few of the titles I'm thinking about. And I don't know if three songs is enough. Actually, we should probably take more than we make it very tough. But among them I would pick. I'm really a big fan. I used to play piano. I'm a big fan of piano and especially great piano players. And I love Keith Jarrett. And I think my favorite is the current concert tickets from 1975. And that is just an amazing piece of music. So I love that.

    Steve Statler 37:24

    You describe his style like genre.

    Micha Benoliel 37:28

    And another big classic I love is and I will probably take is Miles Davis. Do Bob song do Bob song. That's a really an amazing piece. And then in more classic ones. I mean, I love you too. So I would I would probably take one title from YouTube probably would be I think it's I'm still looking for we're still looking for

    Steve Statler 38:01

    another one. Have you seen them live?

    Micha Benoliel 38:05

    I've seen them live in South of France once. Yeah.

    Steve Statler 38:08

    And what was the concert? Like?

    Micha Benoliel 38:10

    It was I mean, it was great. I mean, obviously, all these great songs from YouTube. So it was great fun. And then I can cite a few other ones like I mean, a lot of go play a losting Yeah, so

    Steve Statler 38:26

    me too. We have a lot of Yeah, I share a lot of your tastes and actually if you're a Coldplay fan on I think it's

    Micha Benoliel 38:34

    there's One Punch Man I would love to choose Frenchmen. I love that. dustbag you see and, and and Phoenix. Phoenix is so good. All right. I was lucky to travel with them once from on the flight from Paris to San Francisco and then they invited me to the concert in Santa Clara. and

    Steve Statler 38:54

    amazing. Very cool. Well check. Check out the Coldplay documentary. There's, it goes with their latest album, but it's recorded right from the earliest stages of when they first started playing together. Before Coldplay was called Coldplay. And it's on. I think it's who it's either Hulu or prime Amazon Prime. So

    Micha Benoliel 39:18

    maybe on Netflix. So what's the name of the documentary? Just as research for Coldplay? We'll find it but

    Steve Statler 39:25

    yeah, you'll find the name of the documentary. I think it's named after their last album but actually spends every album and it's a very personal it's a lot of personal photography of them. So if you're into Coldplay, you'll like it, you know. So thank you for that.