Mister Beacon Episode #56

Real Time Location Systems

October 25, 2017

Real Time Location Systems have been considered rare and exotic technology deployments until recently. Bluetooth is changing all that, in a way that is sparking a wave of innovation–not just in high tech, but in warehouses, manufacturing facilities, hospitals and office buildings around the world. We talk with the person that literally wrote the book on RTLS, Ajay Malik.


  • Steve Statler 00:00

    In real time location systems have been considered rare and exotic technology deployments until very recently RTLs has been used by luxury car companies like BMW to track the location of three series and five series models mixed on a single high tech production line. These systems cost millions. Now Bluetooth is changing all of that in a way that's sparking a wave of innovation, not just in high tech, but in warehouses, manufacturing facilities, hospitals, and office buildings around the world. Speak to the CEO of any Bluetooth beacon vendor, and nine out of 10 of them will tell you, they're focusing on the enterprise where the ROI is a specific and measurable RTLs is a key application for that. Last week, I had a fascinating discussion with the guy that literally wrote the book on RTLs Ajay Malik, Ajay Malik is one of the most joyful technology geniuses in the business. And he's been working in this space for years. So it was wonderful to have him explain it to us firsthand, check out this important episode. And do subscribe on Mr. beacon.com, Facebook, YouTube, or your favorite audio podcast platform. Ajay Malik, author of RTS for Dummies, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast is a real privilege to have the person that literally wrote the book on RTLs. Personally, I have two copies of the book, the Kindle and the and the paperback. So it's incredibly thorough. And it's definitely not for Dummies, it's comprehensive. It goes into quite a lot of detail, but it is super accessible. So enough of the flattery and praise tell us what is an RTLs.

    Ajay Malik 01:58

    So our RTLS stands for real time locating solutions. And, you know, like, the way you see GPS, outdoor location, like everybody knows GPS, you can find where you are, or you can find the nearest PISA or anything. So RTLs is everything about real time locating. And that could be indoors or outdoors. It could be knowing your position, or knowing position or something or somebody else. So the book is all about all technologies, all ideas about various solutions, the challenges you face in doing RTLs.

    Steve Statler 02:44

    That's, yeah, that makes sense. And but let's just go one stage deeper, what do you see as the boundaries between an RTLs? When is an RTLs? Not an RTLs? Because there's a lot of systems that are dealing with presence and location, where do you draw the boundaries? And I think you went pretty broad in your book, but if you're being very kind of precise, what would you say the boundaries are of an RTLs?

    Ajay Malik 03:12

    You know, what my boundary, I do not have a boundary. My boundary is if there is a location, and I call it granularity, and you know, so, to me, I am on Earth, that's real time locating or are the rover is in Mars. And locating as well as I am in America, or I am in my home, they are our location or it could be you know, I am 37.456 I can give you the full GPS coordinates. It could be at that level. So I go like very precise to very broad, and that's how I define granularity.

    Steve Statler 03:55

    Okay, so we're talking GPS and we're talking Bluetooth tags, and we're talking Ultra wideband and what have I missed off that list? What do you think is in that RTLs bucket.

    Ajay Malik 04:09

    A lot of technologies so let's talk about the technologies in the outdoor space, right. So you have GPS, you have the cellular based location like which cell tower you are connected, you have the location based on which satellite you are connected, you have outdoor location based on just physical visual present, you know, like camera snapshot or the satellite imagery telling who is where things like that. Then when you go in indoors, there is a plethora of technologies, you have Wi Fi Bluetooth ZigBee a lot of technologies you know, there are a lot of RF space which is open so like you will have in 433 800 980 100 1900 All mega heartspace a lot of technologies in that space, you have technologies, which are locating based on sound, right? Or ultra sound, you have technologies like ultra wideband, you have technologies on, you can locate based on, you know, ultra low frequencies also, right, like I was recently reading, and that was pretty, one of my, another new area of interest I'm exploring, you know, like our brainwaves, they also have a pattern. And they're actually ultra low frequency waves. And they can be also transmitted and recognized. So, in fact, there are some defense projects where they are actually putting some big, large, large sensors. So this is how they detect human presence. It's amazing. So the technology range is very broad also.

    Steve Statler 05:57

    That is tremendous. And how, I mean, how did you get into this space? And why did you write this book?

    Ajay Malik 06:07

    So I tell you, right, this is started in around, not for the book, you know, I was with simple technologies symbol, I don't know if you have heard of it, they made the barcode, so simple, owns the patent on the barcode, they invented the barcode, okay, and they were doing Wi Fi, we were doing developing designing Wi Fi. And we were like part of Wi Fi Alliance defining lab and B to live on G and all those spaces, then symbol bought a company called matrix, it was an RFID company. And my, my manager said, RJ, I want you to figure out how you can integrate RFID into Wi Fi. And I started looking at RFID. And then I was like, wow, I can get the RFID tags reading at each reader level. But like, you know what I was coming from the Wi Fi background. So for me, it was very natural to see that I can manage multiple RFID readers from the same. From the same, same central controller, I can manage multiple readers, okay. And then pretty soon my idea became that I can have, I can allocate tags, I can locate tags, and I can locate tags across the building, when it was like, wow, it's not just I can locate a tag or region tag, I can tell the location of tag in the building a holistic view, right with RFID tag has been. And then if I was like, Oh, we can do the same for Wi Fi. And then I started talking to more companies and there were a lot of companies in Ultra wideband space on ultrasound space, Bluetooth space, those days, it was not called BLE. And it was like I was learning on steroids. Like I was talking and since I was part of symbol and then symbol got acquired by Motorola, Motorola being being a big company, a lot of small companies wanted to interact. So I just became, I was just lucky to be at the center of all the location activities happening. And I was learning so much why I wrote the book so hard. That's a different story. My, my wife always wanted to me to do masters, I have not done masters. And she was like you should study more. Learn a you know, you cannot just do bachelors. And so I said, and the dummies people at that time, one guy had contacted me that would you be interested in doing a book? So then I talked to my wife and said, If I do a book, then do I? Is that? Does that qualify as Master's? D? She says yeah, and I said, Okay, I'll do it. And then I and the dummies people, the Isley Brothers, right. While in company, they do a pretty good job. They assigned a big team. Yes. And they did a tremendous job. It was especially I'm not a non native English speaker. And they worked with me. They had like a team of 15 people, editors, readers proofreaders and to help me and I'm writing and drawing things and they are like helping me.

    Steve Statler 09:26

    You have cartoons as well. It's like full production and information. Everything you should want.

    Ajay Malik 09:34

    Handed to me like the name of the book was dummies, I think it is just like this, but it was like it to me. It was like a reference building. I was putting lots of stuff and it was very good exercise. And that's why like I wrote the book for that reason, but when I was doing it, I tell you, I learned so much it was like doing a PhD.

    Steve Statler 09:55

    Because I felt the same way when I did the beacon technologies book And really, I loved it so much I carried on doing these interviews to kind of keep that experience of learning. Really nice, really nice. So that's, that's wonderful. And once again, RTLs for for dummies. So why would we want an RTLs? What are the what are the business drivers that are actually causing people to implement these systems.

    Ajay Malik 10:24

    A lot of business drivers. And in fact, the word RTLs, you know, like when it started, and where we are today, the word may RTLs, as a word or phrase may not be as known, but what the word people know, today is IoT, or virtual reality, or augmented reality, or machine learning artificial intelligence, right. And I think those steps are, those are the applications, which have developed around this whole world of RTLs. And in fact, even at the time, when we were doing RTLs, and I'm sure you were dealing with that, at the same time, these used to be called machine to machine things, we did not have that term IoT, but we will be using M to M MDM, different terms, people were talking about these things, and they are the same things, we have been using them. And people were talking the business cases, all those business cases are still around many more, right? So people do, Why will people do RTLs. So, you know, same reasons which you do anything, right? Top Reasons are always I qualify generally reasons for anything in buckets of I want to make more money, I want to save money, I want efficiency, I want entertainment. And you know, the so these are the four reasons I want to do things. And RTLs gives you business drivers in each case, and every vertical has different use case, for example, like the, you have a use case of proximity marketing, that, hey, when I see somebody I want to send you a coupon, or if you came again to my shop, Hey, are you are a frequent visitor to the shop, I want to give you something more, right. And I want to keep you keep coming here. So I need a location. So the location becomes like a revenue driver, marketing driver, the location also becomes I want to find all my assets for tracking, you know, in healthcare, they say, People spend about 13, with nurses spend about 13 minutes every hour for finding things. Oh, that's a lot of time being spent. And so you want that. So you want to tag put tags or some either put tags or the devices are coming up with some integrated approach. So that they can be located. I have a system so that nurse can find it easy, right? Or you want to find the doctor where the doctor is right. And you want to find that nurse. So you have reasons like that, or in like Amazon warehouse, you want to locate things when the robots are actually picking up things and getting things you know what the only thing and they do not put all the things in order, right? They put things like that, in that case, you need robots to find things. And the only thing they can find is by using location, so they know where the location is. So location becomes a part of the business like location also becomes part of your efficiency, find the fastest route, right? If I am driving, it's a and you know what, when we have autonomous cars, right? Or autonomous forklifts, right, when there is no human involved behind it, or human driving it, the only way they will approach things or they will do things is by making use of location, location has been always fundamental for everything. Right? I think there are two things which matter and for which we we do not have our own internal sense of location and time. We need those two things from outside everything else human being is pretty has everything inside it.

    Steve Statler 14:11

    So you've cited a lot of different applications there and reasons why people would implement an RTLs obviously, there's a cost involved in some of these systems can be very expensive. Although the price seems to be really coming down. We'll talk about that later. What do you think are the most potent drivers have an ROI? You know, where do you see the sweet spot that is driving investment in this? Because my sense is that, you know it has been around for a while your book, or How old's your book now?

    Ajay Malik 14:44

    It came in 2009.

    Steve Statler 14:46

    And I read it and it was like it had been been written yesterday. It was kind of uncanny. It's like, I feel like this stuff just came out. I can't believe the date on this book. So in some ways, things haven't changed. But I do feel like there's a lot of changes in it. Then we'll talk about what changes have come since you wrote the book. But let's get back to the center of this question, which is, where do you see the biggest drivers for actually, people implementing projects? And if I'm building an RTLs company, if I'm building the software, or the hardware, what are the applications that you think are going to be the most successful in this space? And why?

    Ajay Malik 15:23

    Okay, so there is one application, which is around asset tracking, yes, will always be there, and people will need it. And I think that is like now a baseline application, and it will be always successful. And people need it. And people need to find things, whether its own commercial enterprise, you know, a big factory, wherever it is, people need it. Yeah, I think that is one space. I think a modern driver for RTLs will be around contextual computing. Okay. So what I mean by that is, you know, like, when you are doing machine learning, you want to know where you are learning that data from. And you need to look at that data. So the location is very fundamental, another fundamental element for machine learning. And that's where all the modern applications around artificial intelligence for improving efficiency, or robotic applications, or the applications for virtual reality, or augmented reality, they will use location as they vary fundamental abdication. And I think that is where the RTLS will become much and much important. And because RTLs will not be used by humans directly. And when it's technology has to be used, or operated by non humans. And when I say Non Humans, I mean, robots, or software's or machines or things like that. That's where it becomes very, very critical. RTLs will play a very critical role in sensing this space.

    Steve Statler 17:02

    Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, my, my sense is that the I mean, you've described some technologies in the book like ultra wideband, I think that's a really interesting area, because it to me was one of these technologies that really established that you could have very accurate location for assets. But in its original instantiation, it was pretty expensive, you know, RTLs systems would would cost a lot. And so you saw them being used by the luxury car manufacturers and so forth, you know, BMW and for finding tools and locating the things on the production line. But my sense is that, you know, Bluetooth, and obviously, I'm a Bluetooth guy, but I do, I am super interested in all the other technologies as well. But that has really, it's kind of bringing the price down. And so you have ultra wideband coming down in price as well. So maybe, so I think, my my belief is that this, we're actually going through kind of a renaissance, that kind of a second wave where suddenly, and of course, the Bluetooth standard is about to change. And it's going to embrace location and asset tracking, and so forth, specifically. And so I think the price is going to come down, down, down, and there'll be used more often. But it's not that this thing is new, which is great. I think for anyone that's developing a business in this, then people have been doing this for a while a lot of the software has got the slots in it. So let's go back and have you talk us through the different technologies that can be used to locate? And I think that's a pretty broad question. So there's kind of different, like spectrum and radio technologies, and then there's different techniques. So maybe we should start off with the techniques. And, you know, first of all, you talk about trilateration, and triangulation, as a way of locating things. And I think most people kind of have a vague understanding of what that is. But what's the difference? What's the difference between trilateration and triangulation?

    Ajay Malik 19:05

    Again, and you know what, most people use triangulation when they actually mean trilateration. Okay, nation is a tongue twister. And it's a complex one. Right? So, people whenever you are computing a distance between more than three points, so you are trying to compute distance from three points or more points like a polygon. That's where what you say I'm using trilateration, when you are using distance from all the points and you are create computing the center, right, based on the distance from all the points.

    Steve Statler 19:39

    So this is basically you're drawing circles, right?

    Ajay Malik 19:41

    Yeah, basically, you're drawing circles. Yes, like you take, if you have three points, you draw a circle on each point, okay, and the distance as the radius, and where these three circles intersect that central point is your trilateration result, so that's

    Steve Statler 19:56

    trilateration that would typically be used by light standard Bluetooth beacons where you're measuring signal strength, right?

    Ajay Malik 20:03

    Yes, they translate, what they do is they will take signal strength. And there is a formula and they will convert signal strength to distance,

    Steve Statler 20:13

    So yeah, so you've got a warm signal here, a hot signal here and cold signal here. And so you infer distance and then you draw the circles and you have a rough idea where something is, well, if that is trilateration, what on earth is triangulation?

    Ajay Malik 20:30

    Yes, people that triangulation is actually very complex. And triangulation is actually using the angles. So it's actually you are determining that what is my angle? When the signal is coming, you can actually do not only know the distance, you also know that angle. And so you can actually compute very nice because now you know, in the 3d space, how the distance is, like, in trilateration. Let me give you an example. When you have three beacons, okay, so what you are you compute is, you say I have three beacons in the floor on the ceiling. So center of the location is actually somewhere in middle of the ceiling. But extrapolated in that same third dimension, to say you are on the floor, not on the ceiling. But you do. But in triangulation, actually, when you are on the floor, you not only know the distance to the weekend, you also know the angle of the straight line that goes between you and the beacon.

    Steve Statler 21:35

    So you actually you have like XY and Z.

    Ajay Malik 21:39

    XY and Z. And that's what the triangulation is. But you know, most of the technologies do not give you the angle. Like in RF, most of the times, it's only you know, all Rf is coming, you do not even know the shortest path, a shortest path may be coming through reflections or refractions. So, you do not know that path. So, you actually always end up doing triangulation trilateration. But you call it triangulation? Everybody calls it triangulation? Yeah. I think it's just easy to see. And that's how you know what people figured out. I'm triangulating it. They have created a border around it work around it. Mathematically, it's different.

    Steve Statler 22:20

    Yeah, absolutely. So I think that there are a few vendors that are doing that. And one of my favorites is Cooper. And I think that this is a Finnish company, and they have like multisegment antennas. And so they literally do measure the phase of the signal crossing the antennas that they get the angle. And so they are pretty accurate. But you can get accuracy with trilateration, I guess, but how do what are the different techniques at the center of this is knowing how far away the asset is the thing that's being tracked from the thing that's locating it? And can you just kind of run through quickly, some of the ways of doing that, because there are many.

    Ajay Malik 23:02

    There are many and you know, let's talk about the RF technologies, all RF based technologies are there is some kind of RF way some like 400 megahertz wave or 2.4 gig or five gig some wave is coming. And when the wave is coming, the what happens is when the wave comes in the air, right, the higher the frequency, right, like 2.4 Gig versus 900, which is the higher ghost less distance, what that means is the wave attenuates, the RF power attenuates, like as a receiver, you cannot even see it if you are too far. Okay, so I cannot see something too far and things deteriorate exponentially. But that means if the graph looks, graph looks like almost like this, so when you are close, the RSSI is pretty good. But the moment you are becoming far, the RSSI now goes like this. So you cannot tell I'm 30 meter or 50 meter RSSI. Same. So this is where all the technologies, the distance from the source of RF, and the between the receiver of the RF has to be not too far. If you're too far, it's very hard to compute the location. And this is the crux of all technologies. And they are trying to solve this problem. In fact, let me just add one thing, you know, what is the biggest challenge in the location world and why beacon is good? And, you know, and how they solve exactly this problem? Because the problem was, how do I add a large number of location sensors or transmitters or receivers throughout the building? Yes. And it was a real problem. Yes. And everybody is trying to solve it Ultra wideband, altra sound companies Wi Fi companies, even Bluetooth companies were coming up with solutions. And then they were coming up with a whole bunch of proprietary solutions or standard ways. audition. But the idea was you put all of them and installation of all this is very difficult. It's actually very difficult. And I think the number one challenge is this, the installation of establishing the background, infrastructure to locate is a lot of work. And this is what I really liked about the beaker, not iBeacon, right? When the Apple did it that was like, Whoa, very smart. They, they said made it a standard so that everybody can use it. And now I can start putting these iBeacons wherever I want in the ceilings, alright, or hide them, here they are there, I wouldn't put them everywhere. And the technology was low energy. So you could run them for two years, three years, five years, figuring it out how you want to do it, and it is manageable solution. So they created a very, they solved the infrastructure problem. And what how it solved is, if the beacons are everywhere, now you do not have a distance problem. And now you are close to the beacons. And since you are close to the beacons, you will start getting location accuracy, because you are in this part of the curve of RSSI. To distance wear exercise quite, you can use the formula easily. But when you pose at that range, it has no meaning. So this is the main thing behind all these technologies. And I believe we can has been a smart thing.

    Steve Statler 26:24

    Yeah, very good. Well, just to recap, so you talked, you started off talking about some of the challenges with RSSI received signal strength and the fact that because there's this logarithmic curve, when you're far from a beacon, it really is impossible to tell. You know, with any precision, whether how much you've moved, if you're like 40 meters away from the beacon, and you move five meters, it's very, very difficult to differentiate that accurately. And so I think, you know, one approach to this is angle of arrival. But that has all its some Yeah, some challenges in terms of having to be have lasers and precisely set it up. And what I think you were saying is, we've had this beacon revolution, where for anywhere from five to $50, let's say 20, or $30, you can get a pretty, you can get a very good Bluetooth beacon, you can put a bunch of them everywhere, even up and down escalators when you're going between different levels, and then you can track, then you can track location a lot more easily. And, you know, I saw that I was at the HP conference Aruba, and they, they have their beacons and they mapped this huge hotel, basically, in a weekend stick stack a bunch of beacons everywhere. And they had a really nice conference map where you could find your way around so that some of the benefits of that. So we've got kind of the pros and cons of RSS and the classic became we've talked about angle of arrival. But there's there's more isn't there's like all these time to talk to me about the time based techniques, because this is the thing that really confuses me, right round trip time, time of arrival, try and make that simple, if you can.

    Ajay Malik 28:05

    Let me tell you, right, like I have, like in the book, I put the techniques into categories, okay. One is like I would call ranging techniques, like how do you get the distance? And then second is the position estimation. Like, once I know the range? How do I compute it? Okay, and let me go into both of them. So in ranging, one of the simplest technique is proximity. And, you know, iBeacon does that very well, too. Right? Are you nearby? That's a good analogy. If I see you, I know you are near me, you know, like, I'm when I'm with my kids and walking, and I'm like, if you can't see me, I can't see you stay nearby. And that is the model as long as we can determine, then you have a something called time of arrival. Okay, time of arrival is, if I can determine the distance time it takes for signal to start from wherever you are, whoever is transmitting, whether it's that I am, or as an asset, or my tag, or it's the location sensor or location transmitter, whichever is transmitting, if we can determine the time from where they start to the time where I am, you know, and this is actually a very important technology used even in GPS, you know, they put in timestamp, like what time the signal when it is coming down what time it started from the satellite. And since I know the location of satellite, and I know the distance since the distance is a lot, the time distance gap is meaningful.

    Steve Statler 29:34

    If you're in a warehouse, that's a pretty small distance. These signals are going what the speed of light are close to it. So how can you use timing in that close proximity?

    Ajay Malik 29:46

    So this is where you know the ultra wideband technologies and some other companies. What they started doing is is they put actually, a lot more gear infrastructure background gear to timesing at a Melosa One level or microsecond level between all the location receivers, it's a lot of work to put all those cables and keep them in a time sync at that level. Because if you are pretty time synced, and you have the real time clocks capable of doing it in nanoseconds, then it's not that bad. Because you know, I can compute the distance, even the five meter means something in nanoseconds, right? But the moment you go, you know what, that technology, that circuitry is expensive. And installing all that background wiring and timesing capability is expensive and lots of work. And it's a lot of cables and a lot of things. And the moment you do a timesing on a low, like in a, I know, in milliseconds, hey, everything is okay, you know, like a signal which goes from where I am, and across the art, right? It just it goes it will take, I think it's over 100 milliseconds to go across. So it takes time. So but it's 100 milliseconds across the art. So between the warehouse, it's nothing, it's not a one millisecond, it's actually in microseconds. And that is why if you don't have those technologies, time of arrival is not really effective. Until you are willing to install all that gear and use technology based on that. Okay, then you have time difference of arrival. Okay, so what time difference of arrival is little difference from time of arrival. Again, you need a lot of precision. Okay, so all these time arrival technologies, I think to make them work in warehouse a lot of heartburn, I think these technologies make a lot of sense, like you really cared about location at a very high accuracy. And you are willing, so you could maybe you can deploy things in a surgical center operation theater, you know, a small dedicated space where I have a focus niche application. And I need this. Otherwise, it's way too much deployment for people. And in team time difference of arrival, but you're doing this, they all are synced up. And now I know the sync this time it took from this signal versus this. So since this is the difference, based on that difference in microseconds, I compute the range, how far you are versus this.

    Steve Statler 32:23

    And we could spend more time talking about about it. But if people want to know more, because there is more and you've you know more, they just need to buy the book and read that. So just a couple of things, then we're gonna have to round up. So very quickly, I was really interested in that you covered security in your in your book, and you talk about that. And I have to confess, I haven't really thought that security was that important with kind of an asset tracking system in but tell me slightly different what's what what should we be aware of, in terms of security without TLS?

    Ajay Malik 33:02

    Okay, so security, you know, for anything and everything. There are two aspects of security, privacy and security. Okay. And they are there are people out there, you know, whose job is this? You know, I was reading that the cybers hacking industry, it's $120 billion industry. That's a lot of money, like, that's a lot more money and lot more accessible markets, then a lot of people are doing their business thing. So it's a very lucrative business. If you if you want to do bad stuff, there is money for.

    Steve Statler 33:45

    The size of the market. If I'm a black cat, if I'm a bad guy, there's money to be made, unfortunately. Okay.

    Ajay Malik 33:51

    Money to be made. Unfortunately, it is so sad. Right? But that's how the world works. Right? So there are people who will so let's talk about beacons, right. So people can disrupt. So there are people who want to just disrupt the workflows, because just to mess you up, or they sometimes do unintentionally, right. And like for example, in IB convert, let me give you an example in IB convert iBeacons are spread out in the building. I figured out what iBeacons are used, I figured out the beacons which are used for gate 76 in an airport and gain 73 and everywhere else. Right. And if I had some mal intention, I can put bad beacons same beacons and put at somewhere else so that when the police are some real security people wanted to use those beacons for their location to catch they are confused and they will go in the wrong direction is like giving the wrong directions to people. You see what my point is? So so so to do have we have to protect Our we have to protect our beacons, we have to protect that nobody can just rogue being broke beacons can put rogue beacons. That is one case, right? The second thing is somebody can go and reconfigure a beacon intentionally to give a wrong direction, if it was followed of direction, or it can change the asset ID, and you may think the asset is still in the building, but when the asset is not in the building, and somebody may be stealing, like in healthcare and all a lot of things, people are putting a surtax, they are actually they're very expensive things, you know, like $75,000 $100,000, you know, like the scopes they put through mouth and all those things, they're expensive gadgets, and they're putting tags on them. And if people can just put fake tags on them or fake tag on something else, and they take it away, the system will not know. So you need to protect the IDs and has to be encrypted sufficiently. So that into and it has to be non changeable sufficiently. And you have to have a ability to detect there is room or misplaced, or somebody has done tamper with that acid. So that is all critical. That's why these are the top reasons I believe, one needs to make sure there is a system in place for protecting the beacons.

    Steve Statler 36:22

    Yeah, very good. Well, this has been wonderful. AJ, thank you so much. We've covered a lot we've covered. You know why and Watson how, but there's more in your book. I know. You've got some great guidance for people that are looking to buy and implement systems so people should check out RTLs for for Dummies by AJ Malik and AJ, thanks so much for spending time with us.

    Ajay Malik 36:48

    Thank you so much. This is, this was my pleasure. Thank you.

    Steve Statler 37:03

    So, um, you know, are you a musical person?

    Ajay Malik 37:08

    Musical? Yes. Wow. What does that mean?

    Steve Statler 37:13

    Well, do you play music?

    Ajay Malik 37:15

    I don't play anything.

    Steve Statler 37:16

    Well, what about listening? Do you ever listen?

    Ajay Malik 37:19

    I listened to everything. I listen to everything. So I am a I'm a more I would say more recent than old songs kind of guy.

    Steve Statler 37:33

    Very good. I admire that. Keeping on top of things. I'm stuck in the 80s myself. So the classic Mr. Beacon question is how well what three songs would you take if you were going to Mars?

    Ajay Malik 37:47

    I don't know. You know, like when I'm going to Mars, those will be actually that will be Indian music. Those Indian songs.

    Steve Statler 37:58

    So excellent. Which three would you choose?

    Ajay Malik 38:01

    I think I will. I will pick one song that this is from a movie, a 20 year old movie, actually. It's called DDLJ. Except for farmers and abbreviation. And I'll pick one song from that movie. I will pick one song from there is another movie. I'm giving them because they are Hindi names. And that movie is called Dil to pagal head. It means like the heart is crazy. And I pick one song from there. And I picked one song from the movie. It's called Uncle control. And I'll pick God this is a more like a prayer song. I'm a religious person also.

    Steve Statler 38:48

    Okay. So that's, that's great. This is the first so we actually haven't had a minute people normally choose Western songs. And I'm so glad that you've gone against the grain and you're giving us a little bit of a broader, broader audio landscape. So thank you for that.