Mister Beacon Episode #100

Smart Lighting, Smart Cities

December 29, 2019

Lighting is everywhere and, conveniently, it’s always powered. This gives it the potential to be a network of sensors for a fraction of the hardware, installation, and maintenance cost of the alternatives. This week on the Mr. Beacon Podcast we meet with Bastiaan de Groot, CEO of the smart lighting company, Ingy, to delve into the disruptive power of lighting, both in an environmental and business context. Ingy believes ‘it is time for a new approach to smart buildings’ so they have built software for a mesh sensor network that is licensed to lighting manufacturers, sensor manufactures, and portal providers. This software offers lighting control systems and a wide range of smart building services like sub metering, asset tracking, indoor navigation, occupancy analytics and more.


  • Narration 0:07

    The Mr. Beacon podcast is sponsored by Wiliot, scaling IoT with battery free Bluetooth.

    Steve Statler 0:17

    So welcome back to the Mr. Beacon podcast. This week, we are transcending the Atlantic from here in San Diego to Amsterdam. I'm talking to Bastian de Groot, who is the CEO of any who are a Smart Lighting Company. And we're going to be talking about smart buildings, smart cities. Some of the disruptive power of lighting, both from a business point of view and from an environmental point of view. So bestehen, welcome to the show.

    Bastiaan de Groot 0:54

    Thank you very much.

    Steve Statler 0:56

    So just before we launch in, I wanted to give what's becoming a regular shout out to Starbucks. Not so they're great coffee, which I enjoy, not for the fact that they provide me my office space whenever I'm on the road. But they have this amazing program for young adults on the autism spectrum. And they are providing them jobs. One of them is my son, and it's been transformational. So no exchange of funds here. No sponsorship, I just really want to thank the folks that Starbucks for. for that. It's a wonderful thing. All right. So that's my, that's our commercial break. Actually, I think there are other commercial breaks, depending on where you listen to this, too. So thanks for having that extra one. So bestehen, just tell us a little bit about yourself. You're CEO of this Dutch Lighting Company. You've worked at Philips, when when did you first get passionate about lighting?

    Bastiaan de Groot 1:58

    What I got passionate about? I mean, I think you have to disentangle that into critical questions. When did you start working in lighting? And when did you started becoming fascinated? I can tell you that. You know? Okay. Yeah, so as you rightfully said, I've got a bit of an unusual background with I think, in the, in the words of Steve Jobs, looking backwards, you know, you can connect the dots. And I think I've got some unique combination of dots. That got me where I am today, in an unplanned way. So my original background was in machine learning and artificial intelligence. Before it was called Deep Learning, which was to steal basic statistics basically. Great in computer science. So I I graduated in that in the Netherlands, then wanted to do something really innovative. I was more in some innovative products. So if you're dancing, you look to launch some innovative products, then, you know, Philips is the natural place to look. So I basically had two choices either go into algorithmic trading at ABN AMRO, or launch innovative products of Philips. That's the two choices. That's fine. So became Philips. And this was 2007. So I think I'd call given timing work for Philips in a renovation department, that's a lot on lighting. Then left Phillips job left to London, joined a boutique strategy consulting firm in corporate venturing so really focused on launching disruptive businesses today are really my combination started to grow. And then I joined Failla Sylvania, which is one of the lights is lighting company in the world, they were looking for a head of strategy. And they saw this entrance of the IT world into the lighting world. So they were looking for somebody that understood both it and lighting, and that could help them transform the company. So suddenly, I had those three elements, build the spotlighting business there, rather successfully left and then and then started in GE together with my co founder.

    Steve Statler 4:26

    Wonderful. Well, I do want to talk about what your company is doing. But before we go there, let's take, I think a relevant detour. And I just want to congratulate you on the TED presentation that you you did touching on how smart lighting can help us out of this environmental crisis. And so I recommend anyone to watch it. You did a wonderful job there. Can you kind of distill what you were advocating? in that presentation, because it was not I'm, you know, definitely recognize the problem that we face with climate change and doing what I can, but I never thought about light bulbs as a solution. So how can lighting potentially help us with smart cities and the environment?

    Bastiaan de Groot 5:20

    Yeah, sure. So I mean, the key challenge that we see, you know, especially with the big, you know, we're just with the big the big climate, climate change and environmental issues we're seeing at the moment is that, you know, we simply have to use our resources more efficiently. And if you just, you know, so everybody always focuses immediately on energy consumption, you know, as the, we have to reduce the energy. But if you think about it a little bit bigger, it's not about just making cars run more efficiently, it's about using less cars, but still being able to enjoy the lifestyle as much as we can, right. And if you start looking around you in the world, actually, on a on a, on a larger scale, you just see, so many resources being under utilized. Right, it's we, we can just use the much more efficiently. So if you, if you look at buildings as an example, I mean, I think the stats differ, but but, you know, somewhere around 50% of desks, or office space at any given time is not being utilized. The problem is, we just don't know with 50%. And we can't utilize more efficiently. The same in cities, you know, a very large percentage of traffic in the city is not actually transporting anyone, it's people trying to find parking spaces. So if you would just be able to understand much more, what is being used at any given time, and who needs what given given time, and you can, in real time match those, you know, you don't need to degrade any quality of our living, but you you just much more efficiently use it. And a lot of people are focused on Oh, we can make buildings 50% more energy efficient. Yeah. But what if we could utilize 50% Less buildings, and this is far more effective way of looking at it. So if you want to do any type of this kind of work, typically, you quite quickly move into the Internet of Things space, you need to deploy a lot of sensors, right, you can see where the free parking spaces are, you can see where the cars as you can see where which meeting rooms are being used, you can see where the people are, that need to be the rooms. But then the big trouble is alright, and I need to deploy this humongous sensor network, which is very costly. And if you want to roll these sensors out in any kind of efficient way, you need, you typically start using wireless sensors in combinations with battery power, because that's the only way you can install them in an effective way until six months or a year down the track when you have to replace all the batteries. And and then the second one is yet great this wireless network technology. But anyone that ever tried to use Wi Fi in an office knows that, you know, getting reliable network coverage into every corner of a building or city is actually really really hard. There comes lighting right there. And there's lighting. So lighting is everywhere. Lighting is always powered. And so if you take these two properties, and increasingly lighting is already being connected, because we're already trying to dim it to turn the lumen are so there is already a communication module present. So if you take this to get any say right, what if I would start putting some of those sensors in my lights, that then means that there is no installation cost because at the moment, I install the lights or install the sensor as well. So no extra cost. Actually, the hardware cost is minimal because you can use the youth housing of the lighting to put the sensors in. You have no battery replacement because the energy cost of a sensor compared to a light point is so minimal. You don't know this, you already got the Communication chip in place. So you just need to utilize it in a more effective way so it can actually connect to the internet. And then for any sensors that can't connect or that cannot be placed inside the luminaire just for physical properties. Actually, your luminaires have now can now create this huge mesh network right so they basically each luminaire can become a wireless router and repeat your signal so even If you want to place a sensor, for example, you want to measure temperature, which you have to measure at 1.5 meters height, so you can't put it in the ceiling. But you can now make a sensor. And you can make this an energy harvesting sensor because all the sensor needs to do is connect to the first light point. And then that light point together with all the other light points can ensure it can always connect to the lit to the to the internet. So your lights can also become a dedicated IoT network. And, and this way you can you can roll the sensors out in effective way that you need to really understand how to manage your buildings and cities in a more effective and carbon efficient way.

    Steve Statler 10:42

    Very good. So you can have very cleverly integrated the occupancy sensing for parking spaces with occupancy sensing for desks and offices. And that I think, neatly leads us to, to what your company is doing. Can you outline a bit about what you do? And don't do because that, you know, lighting? There's lots of different components in a lighting system? What do you do in that ecosystem?

    Bastiaan de Groot 11:15

    Yeah. So first of all, you know, as a startup, you've got to focus, right, so the first choice you got to make lighting is outdoor or indoor. Because those two, that's completely different markets. So we focused on indoor, for a variety of reasons. So we only build ng we only deal with the indoor space. Not to say there is not a great opportunity in the outdoor space. But but we don't deal with it. So what we then focused on is we said the key to make such a thing work is to build an ecosystem, a collaborative way, right, because you basically want to have a whole range of sensors, and sense all kinds of things. And then you want to get that data through your luminaires. And then you want to make that data available to, to the to the all kinds of different platforms that can help do something with this data. If I can see the occupancy rate, I want to feed that into the the room booking system. But I also want to feed that into the app that the cleaners use to schedule their work, because they only have to clean rooms that are actually being used, I want to feed that into the aidsvax system, because then we can throw dates back on or we can reduce the amount of aids for cooling based on the amount of people being present. So you, you really want to make sure you can't build all of this love, right, that's that's just, that's just not so you, you really want to make sure you build an ecosystem of players around you. So this is what we've done. So we said know, what we're going to solve is we're going to solve one problem and solve it really well. So what we need to be able to do is make a mesh network with 10s of 1000s of light sensor points in one network that needs to operate. And it needs to be able to integrate very low cost into a luminaire. Because we can't make the luminaires twice as expensive, because then the whole idea doesn't work anymore. And we're going to make sure that all that data is available in open API's. And we're going to build a partnership, you know, an ecosystem of people that can use that network. So we basically have a three wave platform model. So we make the software in the middle that goes into the luminaires. We license that to a whole range of luminaire manufacturers that use our software both to deliver lighting control, so they can make their control their lighting, turn the lights on and off based on daylight and occupancy. We licensed to sensor manufacturers that then can provide sensors that either can be integrated into the luminaire or can utilize the network of luminaires. And we have partnerships with a whole range of Portal providers that we can feed data to and that can utilize it in different activities and value streams within the building to optimize them based on the data that we get.

    Steve Statler 14:23

    So it sounds like quite a strategic position and given your strategic past kind of makes sense. My guess is this if I was Philips GE or Gosh, just escaping me but actually we've had them on the show so I'm really kicking myself but if I was one of those big lighting companies that made luminaires I'd want to do that. Are you do you find yourself competing with those giants?

    Bastiaan de Groot 14:57

    Well, I think how To make fingerpointing but what what we see is that some, some of the very biggest players, like Philips, tend to even believe that they can do this themselves. And so we typically tend to come across them as competitors. Yes, we see that we currently have a significant headstart on them. And it's been confirmed by customers that we go head to head with them. And we are being selected. Not in every case, but but there's a large part of the market where we can definitely compete. But what we're seeing is sort of if you, if you look at maybe one tier below with the very biggest giants, actually, the lighting market is a very, very valid used to be a highly concentrated market, right. So before the introduction of LED, for the for the non lighting geeks, like the new lighting technology, the lighting used to be highly concentrated. So you had the three giants. And they were making the light bulbs and their failures of scale really work. But actually, with the introduction of LED fell volumes of scale or don't work at all in the lighting industry. So you actually see now that there are 10s of 1000s of lighting players in the world. And actually the biggest ones have no longer have the big market share that they have. And if you look at the tier below it, there's lots of players that do 50 million 100 million in revenue. And for them to develop such an IT system is is far beyond their reach. So we're actually partnering with, you know, we look at the top 10 in Europe that we've now partnered with, with, you know, one or two players in the top 10. And we've got very far discussions with another two or three in the top 10. In Europe. They're saying, Look, one, the investment is really big, you know, it's a significant investment to it's a very different set of capabilities, right? We're a manufacturing company, we understand hardware, we don't understand software, this is a fair, faraway shell for us so, so we don't want to enter that space, we want to license it and put it into our luminaires. But don't build it ourselves. This skill gap is too big. And three, we you we don't want a look at you know, our customers don't want to lock in, they want a system that they can buy from multiple luminaires. Right and effectors.

    Steve Statler 17:39

    So you essentially run across Philips and acuity was the name that I was searching for and GE, is that part of the value proposition that you can help an IoT system that have always been locked in by those giants?

    Bastiaan de Groot 17:57

    Yes, I mean, I think you know, custom customers start to resist the sunset or France, right? They say, look, if I stand arise my data infrastructure on your data infrastructure, and then also locked into your luminaires. Yes. And this I don't want because, you know, the luminaires are a highly commoditized product. So I would just want to be able to write a tender, I want to you know, I've got 110,000 warehouses across of Europe. I want one of I want to tender out, yeah, does there's hundreds or 1000s of kilometers of light for an effective price. But if I, once I selected your ID system, I'm now locked into I can't turn on my lights anymore. You know, I've got locked in and then, you know, that's just way too dangerous for my business. So in therefore I want those two from a separate entity.

    Steve Statler 19:00

    Yeah, I've definitely seen that in talking to some of the one of the largest retailers in the world, they suddenly found that their lighting provider had pulled off the cover and said, Hey, by the way, we've got this IoT control system IoT connectivity that can talk to beacons and so forth. And rather than being really pleased, they were really angry that this kind of strategic decision had been made for them, and they they basically refuse to use it. So. So I think what you're saying rings true. rings true with me. I'm assuming that there are not other standards that doesn't your life become difficult because you have to put your product to all these different luminaires or is that just the cost of doing business?

    Bastiaan de Groot 19:55

    No, I mean, it's an interesting question, right? Because A lot of people are asking, right, what is radio communication? Shouldn't that be an open standard? Right? So we, you know, if you look 10 years ago, everybody was running ZigBee, the Bluetooth mesh, and then we were on the iBeacon show here. So the Bluetooth mesh is also standard, it's being pushed along. Over the last few years, I mean, it's still very early stages just been released, it's now getting first adoption. But what we see in the market is, if you want to do this for significant buildings, you need a wireless mess, then that can scale to sort of 10,000 unit scale, right, that's, that's what you need to do a lot. office tower or similar. And what we found, and I mean, you don't even need to take my word of it, if you just look at the Bluetooth mesh standard, and they're all marketing, they're talking about 700 notes 1000 notes in in a mesh network. And it's like, we just see this gap. And the problem that you just see is that the standardization bodies are not able to innovate quick enough. So what we've done is we've taken the Bluetooth physical layer, so we're using the same chips as Bluetooth, which case has all the cost advantages of Bluetooth, but we build our own mesh on top. And because we're not bound to a standard, we can innovate far, far faster, and far faster scale, with our Bluetooth with with our mesh technology. And because we're using the same Bluetooth chips, actually, we can reuse a lot of the hardware designs, to any hardware design that is made for Bluetooth we can put our software on as well. So

    Steve Statler 21:55

    fascinating. So where is the you mentioned kind of the numbers 1000 versus 10,000, order of magnitude scaling difference for really big installations? Can you point to any other things that kind of break down? Where are the gaps with Bluetooth mesh, that, that you find you're able to fill with your proprietary solution?

    Bastiaan de Groot 22:21

    I mean, scale is definitely number one. The second thing, what we see is, is the bad data throughput that you require on the network, right. So lighting control itself is really low data rate. If you want to get some occupancy data out, still reasonably low data throughput, so this all goes around. But what we're seeing is that actually one of the biggest value errors is asset tracking, right. So what if, you know, instead of turning every light into a beacon, for example, indoor navigation, very low throughput on your network, if you now want to trace it iBeacons integrated into a product, and you have 10,000 nodes out there, and you're going to try to triangulate and then the amount of data you're going to put over your network is, is humongous. And we're able to do this with our, with our state. So we you know, we're currently rolling this out in, for example, hospitals. So we're putting Bluetooth battery powered chips in on medical equipment, and we can localize them with with, you know, sort of five meter precision within the hospital. And we're able to do this because our network is far, far more powerful. And I have not seen I mean, I'm not an expert on Bluetooth mesh. But I haven't seen anyone do anything like this with the Bluetooth mesh. And actually, we're seeing quite a few people now using similar Bluetooth mesh technologies is we're using as the backbone network to get the asset tracking data out.

    Steve Statler 23:57

    Now that that makes sense. You know, from our own point of view at Wiliot up just to put my day job hat on, we look at like stores that might have 100,000 products, and that could each have battery free Bluetooth tag on. So 100,000 items can generate a lot of traffic. And so that's something I don't think anyone's got a solution for that today. But that's something that I think will really test the mesh networks that are out there and to be frank, it will test us as well. So

    Bastiaan de Groot 24:36

    so just to freely pitch off our capability. So one of the, you know, sort of proof of concept or testing around system. What we did is one of the tests we did is we took 1000 Bluetooth tags, put them in one cubicle meter, and then were able to identify all of them

    Steve Statler 24:59

    that is fascinating. Okay, so 1000 tags in a cubic meter? And, you know, how long did it take to register all of them? Was that a? Was it? Was it an hour or?

    Bastiaan de Groot 25:15

    A day? Yeah, I did. Yeah, you're over asking a question?

    Steve Statler 25:21

    Well, anyway, the fact that it worked, and I don't, you know, my sense is that most people would be happy for over a period of time to get that. And actually, I think it's kind of, we come across this difference quite a lot. You know, previously, if you wanted to tag things, you'd stick an RFID sticker on it. And that whole system was designed to scan 1000 tags in a second. But I think, with Bluetooth assets, whether they're tagged with battery powered tags or something else, if you've got a lighting infrastructure, you're not talking about someone pointing a gun at something pulling the trigger, and then needing to read everything instantly, you can actually have continuous tracking of assets and inventory, because the readers are just there in the ceiling. They're constantly there.

    Bastiaan de Groot 26:14

    This is what we saw with one of our clients in hospital. Right? So they were looking at real time. Asset tracking. Yes. And, and but they were not bound with technology, right? They just said, Look, we have so many beds, we just want to know where our beds are. So whether we put Wi Fi tags on their RFID tags on their Bluetooth tags on there, doesn't matter, as long as we know where our bedside and so they did, you know, quite practical trials with all these kinds of technologies. And yet, you know, the beauty of our solution was, well, the infrastructure is free, right? Because, well, luckily for us, they didn't have any LED lighting yet. So they're already looking to upgrade the lighting to put LED lighting in. So the luminaires already played paid for from a different budget, right? This is a different guy with a different budget that just has a budget to put LED lighting in its pays for itself in five years anyway on energy. Inputs, infrastructure in and then after that, you can just see every wheelchair in real time in your office without, you know, instead of saying, Okay, I now want to find a bed. Yeah, I can run around with a gun. Yeah, completely different proposition.

    Steve Statler 27:34

    And this is so important. Because if we look at startups and technology prognosticators, we're always looking at whether this technology is going to be successful or not. And is it achieved escape velocity and the biggest gravitational pull back to Earth for these things to crash and burn? Is, is infrastructure, the cost of the infrastructure? And I think what you're eloquently pointing out is that IoT can get a real boost when essentially the infrastructure is being paid for with energy saving ROI. And then you suddenly have this ubiquitous connectivity. And so then the question is, what do you do with it? So what are you doing with it? What tell us about some of the projects that you were you're working on? You talked about this hospital project tracking beds, you don't think about people losing beds, but they do wheelchairs, and all sorts of other equipment? What else? Is this idea being useful?

    Bastiaan de Groot 28:38

    I mean, we, I mean, a range of sectors is humongous, right? So hospitals is absolutely a key key market just because the ROI are so fantastic, right? So what we're now seeing with our clients is that they can save about 10 to 15% of the amount of medical equipment they need to buy. So 15% Less pets and a bath in hospital. It's about 10,000 euros, right? That's humongous saving and just start putting one tag on because remember, the infrastructure is already paid for, to put one tag on and you can buy 15% less than and then the nursing the time the nurses spend. So on average, there's a huge famous stat from the NHS in the UK, that the nurse on average spends one hour every shift, looking for stuff. Wheelchairs drip feeds. I mean, one of the funniest anecdotes I heard in the hospital space was somebody telling me that actually people are hiding medical equipment on the ceiling plates everywhere in the hospital, because they just want to make sure that if they need a drip feed, they will have their own private stash, right so they're all walking around like squirrels

    Steve Statler 29:55

    hiding amazing

    Bastiaan de Groot 29:57

    medical equipment. I mean, you mentioned the savings. You can achieve you can find all this medical equipment. So So hospitals is huge. But we're not just doing asset tracking there, right? We're also doing occupancy analytics, air quality monitoring, indoor navigation, huge value to patients, right if they can navigate inside the hospital, the logistics market. So we're now working with some of the largest logistics parties in the world.

    Steve Statler 30:31

    Tell me yeah, how does that work? So I'm just sort of thinking through these use cases, and you've got the luminaire. It's listening for tags on assets, got that? Navigation, you've got the luminaire, broadcasting out this kind of constellation of mini GPS satellites, so that your young can recognize where you are and how to get you to the consultant that you're due to see in five minutes. But what the logistics thing, how does that work?

    Bastiaan de Groot 31:00

    So logistics? I mean, this is a very interesting proposition. Right? So if you are a well at warehouse developer, basically, your clients are now asking you for a smart warehouse, right? What the Sarah warehouse full of sensors. And you just see these warehouse developers sitting there, because they're their books, builders, they literally just build square boxes. It's, it's nothing more than that. And as somebody wants to smart warehouse, I'm gonna do so what if, if you were basically going to them and say, Well, do you have got lights in your warehouse? Yes. Well, if you just spent that budget with me, it's not going to increase anything. But then your warehouse is already full with sensors. Fantastic. And Dalian girls go to their customers and say, right, this warehouse is now pre equipped with an asset tracking solution. So this is a far more valuable warehouse. And then they can inox a subscription to activate that surface. So it's an extra revenue stream. And for the, for the end customer is brilliant, because they can now do asset tracking. So they can track the routes of their forklift trucks, and their goods. And they can optimize their routes in the warehouse, because they can know exactly which goods are where, at any given time, they can do indoor navigation, because if people are looking for certain goods that can be directed to the right location, so they can do. Air quality is actually also concerned. In those warehouses, apparently, the fourth organic components are very high with all this stuff going in. And if you take logistics a little bit wider, not just box shifting, but if anything is happening to the boxes, so you know, like manufacturing or something, you can then follow products as they go through the different processing station. So you actually know whether a shipment, if you have a pecking order, you can now actually give an indication of where that thing is in the pecking order process if all the goods have been put on a basket, and where the basket is in the process. So it's really interesting. We're now moving into educational. So again, indoor navigation. I mean, we're not talking primary schools here, but but also air quality monitoring super important. You know, can we monitor the air quality? In every room, we can displace lots of air quality sensors, and we can basically have an independent view on the building management system, say, while the building management system might say it's, you know, the right temperature. But is this true? And you now have an independent sensor checking on the system? Cool. And then yeah, most recently, we moved into chicken farming.

    Steve Statler 33:58

    Tell me about these chickens?

    Bastiaan de Groot 34:01

    Well, it's, it's a really interesting market. And it really tells you something about where we are in the world. Because what we're now seeing is people say, right, I've got these huge chicken farms. And I just want to make sure 100 sure that these the quality of those chickens, that their quality of life is optimal, right? Because the better they are, the better they grow. The more production the more X Yeah, so actually making life very comfortable for a ticket is very measurable and productivity, right? If you've got an office and you make people 10% more productive, okay, you fire 10% of the people now, so to make that business case to your CFO is actually really our business case to make. Why make chicken more 10% more productive. I can measure that at the end of the day because I get this camera. I can literally count my x

    Steve Statler 34:58

    you So.

    Bastiaan de Groot 35:02

    So yeah, we're doing both lighting control. So we can we can optimize the lighting to really make the space more effective for the chickens and the chickens really respond to this by growing faster. But, but then also producing more. But we can also very importantly is what you're seeing in the market now is that the gas emissions of farming become more and more important. I don't, I don't know what the situation is in the US. But currently, in the Netherlands, building projects are being stopped because of the gas emission. So they, they have to measure the gas emissions. And when again, we can help them with it. And we can track the tickets for the cows. So we know how many meters every chicken vote, we know widths, how much they weigh, we can measure the entire output. And it's really fascinating because I just remember the first time I pulled up at one of these chicken farms, and you know, you pull off in the middle of nowhere, being greeted by you know, a farmer that, you know, he's standing in his oval in and he says, All right, well, I'll go into my office, and you walk into this chicken farm, you walk into his house, and then you walk into the office and you're like, is this like a CIA like, hideout farm? Because suddenly you've got like, a wall full of screens? You're thinking? Are you like trading on the stock exchange? Like no, no, this is my data room. And it's like, this is a high tech data center where they where he can see the growth rates of his chicken, the egg production, the food intake, the temperature, everything. Oh, my goodness. I date, hi, IoT enabled businesses. They want the data infrastructure,

    Steve Statler 36:58

    I never knew. That's fascinating. Well, it's I'm comforted to hear that the health and happiness of chickens is important either Boris Johnson gave a recent speech where he painted a picture of a dystopian future with legless chickens, which, to me seems like the whole point of eating chickens is that they have legs, but anyway. But that's, that's very good to hear that there might be some hope of a correlation between good business outcomes and happiness amongst the chickens in that CIA data room is, is also fascinating as well. Gosh, I think we have to wrap it up here. But this has been fascinating, very, very interesting journey from smart cities. lampposts, looking for empty parking spots through to smart buildings, and hopefully environmentally more friendly to this very interesting thing that you've identified more clearly than I've heard elsewhere, which is the strategic opportunity, not just for the lighting companies, but for the whole IoT industry with this infrastructure for free, which is starting to blanket buildings. So Sebastian, thanks very much.

    Bastiaan de Groot 38:21

    Excellent. Thank you very much.

    Steve Statler 38:28

    Well, normally we ask what three albums you would take to Mars, but maybe I should be asking you what are the three best concerts that you've been to?

    Bastiaan de Groot 38:37

    Yeah, I think I think for the recording of the corporate question which I actually prepared. So so the first one that came to mind was spring from RMB, which I thought was a great song because you know, you're going to be on this plane to Mars, or space to Mars. So anything that sort of reminds you of sunshine and spring and in the beauty of nature, I thought it was a brilliant,

    Steve Statler 39:11

    so the song is called Spring and the group is r&b, r&b, as opposed to, okay, they're not yet familiar, but that's good excuse for me to to find that and listen to it. And so that's number one. What's number two?

    Bastiaan de Groot 39:28

    Then I thought it's gonna be a very long journey. So if I can only drink two songs then probably a very long song. It's gonna be so this is why you're probably not I'm definitely sure he knows I and I'm probably not the first one to come up with it. I think this bog standard ended but like, Stairway to Heaven came to mind. Be very applicable and very long so that you can use it on a big journey.

    Steve Statler 39:55

    Yes. And you could learn to play it on a guitar or something and amuse yourself. for that as well, it's kind of classical beginners aspirational thing to play.

    Bastiaan de Groot 40:06

    Exactly. And then And then number three was well as I'm going to have to miss my sort of business in intrapreneurial work for, you know, at least two or three years. I thought of bringing my, my favorite business song, if you can call it this, which is the gambler from Kenny Rogers, which I think is a fantastic song to just keep in mind whenever you're doing investors and dealing with investment I think that's my that's like the number one song to teach you about business. And so this is still intrapreneurial for corporate link, I love to put them on.

    Steve Statler 40:49

    Very thought provoking. I love that. Very good. Thanks very much.

    Transcribed by https://otter.ai