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Mister Beacon Episode #97

Ultra-Wideband (UWB) in the iPhone 11

October 09, 2019

Ultra-Wideband (UWB) in the iPhone 11 – What is it and what are the implications?

A few months ago a large group of engineers from Apple and Samsung entered the room where a small group of engineers were working on updating a previously obscure radio standard IEEE 802.15.4, mainly used for industrial applications such as luxury car production. Fast forward to a stage in Sunnyvale where Tim Cook unveils his new iPhone 11. The fate of Ultra-Wide Band or UWB was changed forever when Apple added a new it’s U1 UWB/Ultra-Wide Band radio and an elaborate new antenna to its latest iPhone 11.

We talk to Nathan Dunn CEO of Bluecats, one of the pioneers of UWB and Bluetooth solutions about what this means to the industry, the applications it unlocks now and what it could be used for in the future.


  • Narration 0:07

    The Mr. Beacon podcast is sponsored by Wiliot, scaling IoT with battery free Bluetooth.

    Steve Statler 0:16

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon Show. This week we're going from San Diego to Sydney. I am talking to Nathan Dunn, who is the CEO of Blue Cats, who straddle the world of Bluetooth and ultra wideband. And we're going to be talking about some really major news, which is ultra wideband. Anything out there in the iPhone 11. So Nathan, you've been on the show once. Welcome back.

    Nathan Dunn 0:45

    Thanks. So thanks for having me. I slightly different backdrop, as you can see from Phoenix, the last time we caught up, but

    Steve Statler 0:51

    this is fabulous. This is what the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

    Nathan Dunn 0:56

    It is it is best in the world. And it every single day looks like this in Sydney. So it's pretty tough, too tough to compete with. Well, when

    Steve Statler 1:04

    you first came on, I assumed this was some fake backdrop. But this is the real thing. Can you give us a twirl? Can we see what else you got there?

    Nathan Dunn 1:12

    You know, this is this is legit. So you've got your North Sydney pool down there. Probably the most scenic pool that has some laps in the world. And then we we spin around the corner here you'll see a Ferris wheel, Luna Park and amusement park over there another iconic landmark in Sydney. And then you can't see the Opera House. But it's sort of tucked behind the bridge there. So

    Steve Statler 1:34

    it's not getting any work done with that with that distraction. But you seem to be working very hard. You've actually got a bunch of locations, where are your offices

    Nathan Dunn 1:44

    are. So we're headquartered in Sydney. And we've got to US US law offices, one in Huntsville, Alabama, and another one in Austin, Texas. So it's, it's a very good spread. And if we want to want to get a lot of work done ahead of the US, so we haven't haven't got views like this to distract me.

    Steve Statler 2:04

    Well, so we want to talk about this very disruptive event that's happened. There's a new radio in the iPhone Ultra wideband, what is it? What can it do in this context? And why was it put there, we're going to explore all of that cool stuff. I do want to talk to you about an event that we kind of touched on the the prelude to that when we first talked, which is you you've you've now integrated your now two companies into one. Just before we get into that I want to do one shout out to Starbucks, which is kind of a new tradition that we've got. Starbucks are not a sponsor. But they have this amazing program that offers job opportunities for young adults with autism. My son's one of them, we're so grateful for what they do it mean it brings sort of hope and meaning to to young people who wouldn't otherwise get a job. And they end up working in this amazing environment with really cool, friendly people and beautiful environments. And actually, my office away from my real office is often a Starbucks. And it's great that these guys are really walking the talk in terms of social responsibility and giving back back. So thanks to Starbucks. And now back to the main point of this, which is, which is talking about Blue Cat. So Blue Cats has had this would I call it sister company can tell us what's happened to your company structure and how that relates to bringing BLE and your web together?

    Nathan Dunn 3:44

    Yes, so blue cats started in 2009, nearly 10 years ago, over 10 years ago. And the initial technology we embrace was actually Ultra wideband. And we started doing work with one of the original pioneers of ultra wideband, a company called time domain which is located in Huntsville, Alabama. And through the process of working with their team and understanding the the possibilities of a real time location technology. We ended up purchasing a lot of the IP and and a lot of the product out of time domain and a company was established plus location systems. And that gave us the footprint that we have today in Huntsville, Alabama. And shortly after that around 2012. The idea for Bluetooth beacons, Mobile SDK and cloud platform came up. And so blue cats was started in Austin, Texas. Two very, very different trajectories, two completely different technologies. One was hyper accurate with a lot of infrastructure. Another one was near enough is good enough. Focus on deployability and scale. And you know better better than Then he won the the, the hype around beacons, around 2012 and 13. Boycotts was was was right in amongst all of that. At the same time, ultra wideband, which is technically been around as long as Bluetooth was really this location technology that was known for being very, very accurate. But there was a lot of effort involved. There's a lot of infrastructure, a lot of cabling, read cost. And there's any number of matrices that are still published today, around location technologies that have undoubtedly Ultra wideband listed as the most accurate, but it's cost prohibitive. And so there were two very different trajectories, absolutely a market for that type of technology. Over the last two years, and certainly when when we last caught up, that was the first time that we'd realized that there's there's an opportunity to converge the two. And, and we started looking at what it means to have a very, very robust location, engine and platform, courtesy of the EWB legacy system. And and what value that could add to more of the light touch, ble use cases that blue cats were involved with. And so there was a lot of trial and error and engineering, butting of heads, which is always a healthy, healthy thing to have. And you know, what's ensued. And what we announced recently was an official merger of the two companies operating under the single brand of blue cats, and are very closely followed over the next probably three months, we've got a number of new product innovations that will position blue cats as a as a multiband, real time location company. And it seems very fortuitous and coincidental. But, you know, the companies such as Apple, understanding the value of the web and the broader applications, which I think that the market aren't really aware of just yet. It really is a game changer. So it sets us up. Perfectly moving forward with the recent developments with Apple,

    Steve Statler 7:26

    definitely. So catch me up because I did look at Ultra wideband in some detail, wrote the beacon technologies, but wanted to kind of look at what the alternatives were. And I got a sense of UW B. And then I did some product evaluations for a consulting client. Back before I joined Wiliot. And it what I saw was kind of a legacy you web offering, which was literally 10 times as expensive as Bluetooth, you have all these hubs and coaxial cable and the the actual kind of the tags, if you can call them that were like super expensive and churn through battery. But what I saw was, it seemed like decawave had made some who provide a lot of the chips in this market and made some innovations and there was this new generation of Beacon, ultra wideband products that weren't quite ready for primetime and this was probably like three or four years ago. So what's what's happened to ultra wideband isn't has the price gone down since then

    Nathan Dunn 8:37

    the price will go down there's no doubt about that. And you're absolutely right there there there were the original EWB was time difference of arrival. So so one way effectively so the Anki network was was was scanning and listening and the tags are broadcasting in that situation that's where you have some real power efficiencies so tags can can last three years on a very small console, okay. What what decorate deco ever able to pioneer was being able to get an entire PCB that would go into a legacy Ultra wideband reader onto a chip. And and it's it it's the classic progression of technology. And it takes something like deck away trusting their cape. And in terms of really understanding the the game changing properties that this can provide. But the limitations around adoption with us is price price and power efficiency are probably the two Achilles heels. And they've certainly been able to address the price aspect of it. The two way ranging, which is effectively two compliant devices, communicating back and forth Have, and, you know, the determination of distance can be very, very accurate. That's a very power intensive process. And the so the focus now, and I know certainly for decawave is to improve on that. And very quickly, we will get to the point where the power efficiency from a tag perspective is a lot better than what it is at the moment. Yeah, once you've got that, then the focus is on okay, what what, what are the what are the limitations of scaling this technology? And if you've dealt with the, the, the economics, you've dealt with the power management, then it comes down to the tools to really scale. And so yeah, absolutely. pioneers like deck wave have paved the way and in embracing this technology, you know, the why Apple have the why. Happy to go on the record, every smart device launch next year will also have you web in it. And so,

    Steve Statler 11:04

    device, meaning smartphone or something more than that,

    Nathan Dunn 11:08

    not iPhone, phones, tablets, everyone else?

    Steve Statler 11:12

    Well, that's right, because it's not just Decker wave. Now, is it the a lot of many other chip vendors have come out with? It seems like chipsets for phones and other devices.

    Nathan Dunn 11:23

    Yeah, I mean, NXP have come out with their offering. And so really the latest at the moment, I mean, outside of Apple have produced their own as Apple does. But you've got decawave and NXP. And, you know, the, the focus now is certainly from within the industry is around standards is around interoperability. And, you know, there's there's a lot of moving parts, as you can imagine, there's a lot of egos at the table. And it's, it's important because your web is going to change everybody's lives for the better. And, you know, to do that efficiently, you know, everyone's craving more bandwidth. And that that needs to be addressed. And it's in the process of being addressed.

    Steve Statler 12:16

    So is I thought there was an ISO standard for your web, unlike the Bluetooth SIG, which is sick or not, did I get that wrong?

    Nathan Dunn 12:26

    Look, there's there's a standard that's that's being offered at the moment. There's an IEEE working group working on a new standard, and and that working group includes every major company that we could imagine would be adopting this technology. So I think the objective is to have an authored standard available either the end of the year, or certainly beginning of next year. Okay. And, and so that that will really lay the foundation for more local organizations like the FCC to address some of their historic regulations that by their own admissions are conservative and over protective. And, you know, the quicker that we can get to a clearly defined standard, around certifications of modules and devices, I think the better for everyone.

    Steve Statler 13:24

    So is your web usable in every country in the world in the same way as Wi Fi and Bluetooth or other kind of some no go areas.

    Nathan Dunn 13:36

    I know Japan from memory, and you forgive me, it's, it's, I can't remember the last time I brushed up on Japanese captured regulations. But I know, Japan and Korea, I believe, have some some some rules around the the bandwidth and power restrictions and things like that. But you have to keep in mind that a lot. A lot of the regulation was was put in place. Coming from a position of fear of the unknown. And as you can imagine, you don't want to be annoying, or enabling a particular technology to all of a sudden interfere with aircraft landing radar, or, you know, satellite communication or anything like that. So, so there was a lot of a lot of unknown that has driven the not standards, but the regulations. So technically, some, some of them are reasonably prohibitive. But there's no real basis for that. So I think this groundswell and you know, there are submissions underway at the moment in front of the FCC, that really lay out a logical argument of how we can move forward,

    Steve Statler 14:53

    but just so everyone understands you can use your web in the United States, the the province Since the Federal Communications Commission, so what would the submissions be to change?

    Nathan Dunn 15:07

    So there's, there's really, there's two things that are going on at the moment. The first one is the regulations that are in place at the moment prohibit a fixed outdoor device transceiver, utilizing your web. So, at the moment, you can't have a transceiver that is broadcasting your web, in use outdoors. Okay. Now there are special dispensations for that. Zebra with the NFL tracking is a good example of that. And again, this is that was put in place, thinking about airports and various astronomy organizations and other things back in 2002. Now, there's been no documented complaints of interference or or or issues created with Ultra wideband use using these special cases. So yeah, that's that that's one aspect of the FCC regulations that really needs to be changed. And there's a number of organizations that have been very vocal about why they support that change. And it's not a it's not a land grab. As such, the support is also offered with a very plausible interoperability, coexistence type, type scheme. The other the other thing that is in front of the FCC at the moment is the expansion of Wi Fi. And this is where having Apple jumping on board UW B. And a lot of a lot of the car manufacturers really pushing it as well adds weight to that, that argument because any, any Mandy's dog could side with an argument of, hey, we need more Wi Fi bandwidth. Now, if you give Wi Fi an extra gig, they're going to use an extra gig. If you give them you know, 500 Meg, make them innovate a little bit, they could probably still get away with it. And so so the companies looking to build a future on your web, historically been very underrepresented in terms of someone at the FCC, spending time on Google and saying, Hey, there's a whole industry that that relies on this technology. Thankfully, with the the mad the mad rush, and the increased awareness, so even over the last couple of months, it's it's something to be taken seriously. And again, that's that's an interoperability discussion, as well. And so, so they're the two dynamics that need to be addressed for the right reasons. So that this technology can coexist.

    Steve Statler 18:10

    And one last thing before we go to Apple, so the way Ultra wideband works for the geeks, and we won't get too geeky, because I don't think I'm capable of doing that. But you know, like, Bluetooth, there's a certain there's the 2.4 gigahertz isn band, it's unlicensed spectrum. And that's where Bluetooth sits along with part of Wi Fi. Ultra wideband doesn't work that way does it? It basically kind of spans an ultra wideband that goes over many other areas that are already being used for other stuff, but it just coexist. So how does that work?

    Nathan Dunn 18:51

    So it's unlicensed spectrum as well. And you're right. Ultra wideband can be anywhere from like six gigahertz to 910 1112 13 gigahertz. And it's it's been that way, because there hasn't been a specific use case for any any of the regulators to be focused on. So traditionally, a lot of UW be in play today operates around about the 6.5 6.7 gigahertz center frequency. And so that's where it gets interesting. If you've got Wi Fi coming up, sneak up into the low 60s. That's with some of that crossover potentially comes into it. So the technically the way it works, and the simplest way to think about it is and this is why it's so fantastic for location is a huge web pulse is very, very sharp, and it has a very, very distinct leading edge. And whereas baleen Wi Fi builds up the Max Max Power over over a short ramp up period. So it's very hard to determine when you added hearing those those pulses those signals, and think of it as if someone yelled immediately you hear them immediately, if someone started whispering and then gradually built up, you know, if your ears are better, you heard it heard earlier and things like that. So. So it's that sharp leading edge that sets EWB apart, as well as a lot of the, the nuances of the preamble and various other things add a huge amount of security that just doesn't exist today with all their NFC or BLE, or Wi Fi.

    Steve Statler 20:33

    Okay, and so, this gives us the ability to time the arrival of a signal and therefore calculate the distance very precisely because there's sharper, absolutely,

    Nathan Dunn 20:46

    absolutely. And it's also less susceptible to multipath. And if if, if it is a result of multiparty you can identify that because you you've got that leading edge reasonably well defined, okay? So so it's a very, it is ridiculously accurate, when everything's set up, set up properly. And and so,

    Steve Statler 21:07

    so, so Ultra wideband can be used for different things, it can be used for measuring distances, and therefore measuring locations it can be also be used for data transmission. Where are we? When now let's talk about the iPhone so the iPhone now I've got one of the pro whatever it is iPhone 11 Promax. expensive phone anyway, and it's got this new radio is that use zero or something like that?

    Nathan Dunn 21:37

    I use the the the the u one chip you want? Okay, which I think is short for you wonder what I could do. But

    Steve Statler 21:46

    so what can I do? What can it tell us? Oh,

    Nathan Dunn 21:49

    yeah, we'll never know until Apple decides that we're lucky enough. But there's, it's it's a UW V chip. It's interesting that there seem to be multiple antennas. In in the the iPhone 11, as well, which lends itself to being able to potentially broadcast and receive, there's also some interesting angle of arrival and an angle of departure functionality. At some point, they publicize use case, which was a little bit of a footnote from that from the the 11 launch was the ability to target one individual in a group and AirDrop files. classic, classic case of the the location and the proximity that peer to peer accuracy. And you're right, the US web was originally conceived for data transfer. So the other data capabilities are quite impressive as well. So yeah, that's that's the use case. There's the there's a mountain of patents that Apple have around some of the use cases. One recent recent one that I think was released yesterday, is around you web functionality in wall sockets in power sockets in the home. And effectively being able to map the the floorplan of an environment based on these devices, understanding where they are in relation to each other. And then also take it a step further, potentially wirelessly charging a device if it's within proximity of a power of a wall socket.

    Steve Statler 23:36

    Interesting. So I misspoke earlier, your ultra wideband will be used for data transfer, it will be used for AirDrop and but it will also be this ability to measure I guess in this case, somehow you'll have two people with one of the new phones, they both have a huge one radio in and they'll iOS will know I'm pointing this phone at you rather than my competitor who's like to the left of me or or whatever it is that the basic idea.

    Nathan Dunn 24:15

    It is that's the that's the use case that they've put forward. And obviously leveraging the other MEMS sensors that go on in that in that device, being able to understand orientation and various other other contextual movements. That the spatial awareness not only within the given space that you're in, but other devices within range and that constant updating of that of that spatial awareness gets it's mind blowing. What the possibility you think of augmented reality. For example, in its simplest form does understanding you know if you if you augmented reality or VR, for that matter, understanding, you know, the context of where your hands are in relation to your goals in relation to your feet in relation to someone else playing a game. You know, that is all possible in absolute real time to centimeter level accuracy with EWB.

    Steve Statler 25:22

    And you, I think you alluded to the fact that there's multiple antennas, and we've talked about Bluetooth 5.1 angle of arrival. But what I'm hearing from you is the angle of arrival with your web would potentially be possible with that, which is maybe how you know whether someone's pointing at another person or the you know, someone who's next to them. Is that you think

    Nathan Dunn 25:53

    it's feasible. I think I wouldn't get too hung up on the airdrop use case that was it's almost considered that an Easter egg in Apple's presentations. And as as they're, as they're fantastic at doing, you know, the future was hiding in plain sight when they just had the little little Yuan chip, sort of walked in there with other things. So but yes, I mean, angle of arrival is, is being accommodated. In a lot of the Silicon Angle, arrival angle of departure. There's still a lot that goes on, as you know, you know, through your experience, we will it once you've got the silicone, that's when the work starts. But but but it's certainly baked in there. And you know, how that relates to the iPhone or any other smartphone, depending on the ecosystem that it's operating in, depending on what access everyone's allowed to have to the to the chip, you know, there are so many variables here, but it's, it's certainly a game changer.

    Steve Statler 26:59

    Yeah. So one of the things that I think a lot of us were expecting we I mean, I watched this, this waiting for, you know, some five minute segment where someone was going to walk on stage and do some cool demo. And it never happened. And the thing that I was expecting was this much speculated UW B, set of beacons that were going to be used to do last and found to a level that could only be dreamt to have with say a tile product or something like that. Do you think that's real on

    Nathan Dunn 27:37

    the other? I think I think that'll be next cab off the rank from a hardware perspective. And, and look, tile, and the lighter? Obviously, I have no doubt that they're planning their, their your web strategy as we speak. And you know, that that that consumer focus, you're obviously at the whim of, you know, the the ecosystem that Apple will allow you to integrate into, and it's certainly a game changer, you know, beacons 2.2 point oh, if you want to call it that, the location and the proximity is, is going to be mind blowing for people. Now, now, the thing that doesn't change, when you talk about beacons, certainly from a consumer standpoint, aside from locating your assets, you know, if we, if we look at the original hype around beacons, from a marketing standpoint, whatever else? Yes, your web is going to infinitely greater accuracy and the ability to think of your web integrated into electronic shelf labels in a grocery store frightening levels of accuracy. But all roads still lead back to the user permission. And the and the use case is is the value proposition there. And you would have seen that the recent updates in iOS 13, with more visible reminders of this app has been using your location in these locations over the last three days. Do you want to continue that? And I think that's absolutely brilliant. In terms of that just reinforces that if you don't have a value proposition that you can communicate to me in 25 words or less on I'm not going to let you track me and I think it's valid.

    Steve Statler 29:34

    Well, this is I'm I'm so pleased that you brought this up because I have very mixed feelings about this that we're gonna want the privacy advocates in me says fantastic well done Tim Cook for taking the high road. And shame on all those companies that were sneakily using location to to make money and not sharing value with the consumer. The flip side is I was just is incredibly annoying when I did the upgrade. And in the end, I really didn't want to spend five minutes or even 30 seconds thinking about yes or no, I just said yes to everything. Because if you're getting 20 or 50 requests for something, it just becomes like the, the the privacy terms and conditions where I don't want to risk that this isn't gonna work. I'm just gonna say yes to anything. But I have to say what's happened since is I'm getting, you know, rather than just can we use Bluetooth yet these maps these scary maps of where it's been used. And I think that is very effective. And I have to confess that in some cases, I've said yes. And other cases, I have said, No, what's your view on this? Do you think this is just Apple posturing against Facebook and Google and trying to look whiter than white annoying us all with a bunch of popups? We really don't care about and want to see, or do you think this is going to stay with us? And we're going to constantly have to click on these buttons? Because it's good for us?

    Nathan Dunn 31:06

    I think attack is the best form of defense, in some instances. So I think, look, the the underlying theme, I think, globally, is the horses bolted on real privacy, let's be honest. I mean, yeah, we've seen overnight, Amazon launching picture frames with microphones, microphones in it. So you can be talking to Alexa, wherever you are, I mean, you know, the horse, the horse is bolted. Let's be realistic. I, I think it's a great thing. I think to your point, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a mass exodus away from a lot of location tracking services, purely down to the laziness of that experience. Uh, you just use relayed, when you update, you just hit yes. Just I don't want to deal with it. I mean, there should, there should be a million dollar prize for anyone who reads the terms and conditions on on anything writing easter egg,

    Steve Statler 32:07

    the, the 50,000 of person gets a Tesla or something, you know,

    Nathan Dunn 32:14

    another percent, they, they wouldn't cost them a cent. But I think it's it is valid, though. I mean, at the end of the day, you shouldn't have a right to access all the information that a particular app or a particular company is collecting on you. But the you know, the the trade off is, we're so used to these devices now. And, you know, with everything we've talked about today, it is becoming part of our daily life, for the right reasons. And so, you know, the trade off may be from a privacy standpoint. And I guess there has to be an element of trust. And it's not a word that's bandied around when you talk about the big tech tech companies all that much. But you know, there's, there's not a lot, let's be realistic, there's not a lot that we can do about it. Unless you just want to opt out and say no. And so I think from a, you know, taking the other the other approach, forgetting about sort of the overall ecosystem, and, and the apples and Googles and Facebooks of the world. Looking at it from a, from a marketing standpoint, or an app owners standpoint, there just has to be that value proposition. They 100% It's not a oh, let's just get like location. It's more data points, we've gotten some has to be that value proposition. And there's a ton of value propositions. And I think that's, that was the challenge with beacons initially, was market has went from no idea what people were doing in relation to their real estate to this granularity that is only been available through Google Analytics on a website. And I think that shone a light on we don't know what we want to say to these people. And now, you know, the next wave is gonna give you a very, very finite opportunity to say, the right thing to the right person, if the value proposition is there.

    Steve Statler 34:25

    So that's Yeah, that'll be interesting. I do want to just before we wrap up, we've been talking a while, but this is really interesting. I want to go back to a few more questions about what does this mean and why and what so let's assume that well, first of all, I guess, is there any point speculating about why the beacons appeared? Do you think they just ran out? So I've heard like two schools of thought one is these ultra wideband tags, beacons or whatever are going to be amazing. And Apple is just saving enough time so that they could really showcase it to To out, they actually don't work. And so they decided not to, to show them. I'm assuming you're more on the former than on the latter explanation as to why the big reveal wasn't revealed?

    Nathan Dunn 35:13

    Well, I mean, look, they don't work is open to interpretation. I know there are, there are power management issues, which is why some of the alleged designs showed a replaceable battery, which makes sense. Look at Apple's brilliant at laying the foundations, letting companies in the real world connect the dots. And then it just so happens that everyone ends up exactly where Apple wanted everyone to go. And I think the other the other aspect of it is probably wanting to get iOS 13. And now 13.1. Out there have an installed base, get it in the hands of developers, so that when they do make the announcement, it is the walk on stage in his Israel augmented reality there. I mean, I've got no doubt, they're probably going to be turned to turn an iPad towards the audience. And there are balloons popping up people who've got tags under the seat tonight. So I'd put it down to being prudent in that regard. And, and look, it's it's, and as we've seen before, they might never do it. Who knows, but but but someone is going to and you know, the technology's there that that experience is going to be real at some point.

    Steve Statler 36:34

    Yeah. So what does this mean? Let's assume the kind of the positive interpretation of making sure that you got it right, and you've got enough devices out there and so forth. Do you think this means that the Bluetooth speaking is dead?

    Nathan Dunn 36:53

    Not necessarily. I think there's a there's there's certainly a role for the two to coexist, keep in mind, backward compatibility is a big thing, certainly, probably over the next three to four years, however long it takes people to cycle through through devices. And as you mentioned, the iPhone 11 is not the cheapest handset on the market. So it'll be up to the other the rest of the handset manufacturers to be adopting it and releasing products next year to really, really get that mass adoption. So I think absolutely, there's a there's a role for Billy, moving forward. And that's why I think it's important that you know, RTLs, providers aren't just locking in on a single band. Big because it's such a dynamically changing landscape. For the positive. There's the danger is that so many people jump on jump on the bandwagon of something like EWB. And then there's a lot of misfires, which they inevitably will be, and people get disillusioned with it. But so I think absolutely, there's a role for both. It's certainly a focus for us. And given the journey that we've been on over the last 10 years, puts us in a position where we've we've absolutely got a got a dual band, our platform and and approach to our hardware, you know, the ability to have a UW BB LI tag, and ecosystem is is well within our roadmap.

    Steve Statler 38:33

    Yeah, I mean, the way I was looking at these things, it's another tool in the tool chest. And there's no such thing as one tool that just does everything perfectly. And so, you know, you want to work with a solution designer and architect a craftsperson, who can, who can use the right tool for the right job. And if he turns up with only one tool, then you kind of got your suspicions of what the what the answer is gonna be. And I guess a big part of what you offer with Blue Cats is is demonstrably being able to have both options at your fingertips. So kudos to you for

    Nathan Dunn 39:13

    that. That's yeah, and look, that's important when you're dealing with and I will say, the future the immediate future for boycotts has nothing to do with smartphones. You know, the focus for us is really on enterprise and industrial style applications where you're having a return on investment discussion with someone within the first 15 minutes of explaining what your solution is capable. Now, in all my discussions with anyone to do with marketing with BLE, beacons, return on investment doesn't come up. And so it's fantastic what's happening with with smartphones, because Absolutely, there's a whole world that opens up on its own, let alone being able to introduce smartphones in To the environments that we're where we're working on. But yeah, the ability to start with a single trick or a single tool. But as as an organization wants to grow with your solution or as other stakeholders in an organization realizes, Hey, maybe I could use that for something else, or something that I'm focused on the ability just to extend that capability without having to be a new dedicated system, or a new dedicated API or or whatever it may be. That's really the value that we're seeing moving forward.

    Steve Statler 40:36

    Very good. Well, Nathan, thanks for spending time with this beautiful baseline. I think you win a prize for best, most appealing backdrop, but also just fascinating conversation. Very thought provoking. Thank you.

    Nathan Dunn 40:51

    Thanks, Dave. Always good to chat. And I'll see you stateside very soon no doubt.

    Steve Statler 40:56

    I hope so. I hope so. Cheers. Although I think you know, this we have the tradition about what songs you would take on a trip to Mars and just because you've been on the show once doesn't mean to say you get away without having to talk about something that's got nothing to do with technology to start off with so you know, what, what, what three songs would you want to listen to now?

    Nathan Dunn 41:28

    So I've gone for a little little bit of a mixture. Probably the first one a great up and coming Ozzy band called The Teskey brothers. Highly recommend you look them up and a song called crying shame by the Teskey brothers now the caveat there is provided I can whip up an old fashion or two or three enroute DeMars then that song is the perfect perfect accompaniment to that second song personal favorite of mine a pirate looks at 40 by Jimmy Buffett actually a song I've seen it seen them a kids when they when they go into bed ever since our little so it's it's pretty meaningful. And then third one, which is an iconic song that probably not a lot of people have heard of so doesn't necessarily make it iconic but the cape by Guy Clark absolutely brilliant song and anyone that has chased an idea or a vision through a lot of a lot of a lot of hard, hard times and a lot of toil. It's the the crux of the song is spread your arms, hold your breath and always trust UK so it's a it's a pretty apt song I think

    Steve Statler 42:46

    that's a great songs. Great reason. Thanks very much for that.