Mister Beacon Episode #159

IoT Standards you need to know: Z-Wave versus Matter, Thread & Zigbee

January 03, 2023

In this week’s interview with Mitch Klein, Executive Director of the Z-Wave Alliance and leader of Silicon Labs’ standards alliances team, we shed some light on a set of standards that anyone aiming to be proficient in the art of IoT should know, Z-Wave, Zigbee, Thread and Matter.

We explore the strengths and relative position of these key components of the Internet of Things so that you can understand some of the developments in this space.

Transcript

  • Steve Statler 00:00

    Welcome to the Mr. Beacon podcast. This week, we have an interview with Mitch Klein, who is the Executive Director of the Z wave Alliance. He also works for Silicon Labs, one of the leading providers of chips, and IoT devices. So I don't know about you, but I have listened to try and keep up with all of what is happening with these IoT protocols that are not the Bluetooth home territory that we normally operate in their matters, ZigBee thread Z wave. So who of us can give a clear definition of which ones to use when and where and what the what the best fit is? Well, Mitch can do that. And so that's really what we focus on. And we also get the lowdown on Silicon Labs at the end and hear a bit about his musical tastes for those of you who are interested in the person behind the industry happenings. So just before we go into the interview, I want to let you know that we've been thinking about how to spice up the Mr. Beacon, ambient IoT podcast and make it more useful. And we're contemplating the idea of adding a new section with a colleague of mine, Willie, Brett small, who's a veteran of IoT, and location, and serialization, and all of the technologies that roll up into this ambient IoT thing that we are constantly striving to understand and capitalize on. So let me know what you think about that you can ping us on any of the platforms that you consume will go to the Mr. Beacon website, or go to the winning website. But it's a thought. And I think we're going to try it out and see how that goes. If it's useful. We'll continue doing it. So that's enough inside baseball. Let's get on to my interview with Mitch Klein. The Mr. Beacon ambient IoT podcast is sponsored by Williard. Bringing intelligence to every single thing which will come to the Mr. Beacon podcast.


    Mitch Klein 02:25

    Thank you. Thanks for inviting me safe, glad to be here.


    Steve Statler 02:29

    Yeah, I'm there's a lot to cover in a fairly short period of time, but I would you lead the Z wave Alliance. So I want to talk to you about what is Z wave, really interested in the Alliance? Because we're working on this Ambien IoT Alliance. And so I'm sort of picking the brains of people on best practice. With that, and also Silicon Labs, you're more than Z wave, you're obviously a lot. So love to cover that as well. And there's a few other things I'd love to get to. But I have a feeling we won't have time. So let's just start with Z wave. What is Z wave?


    Mitch Klein 03:10

    That's a great question. Z wave is a technology platform. It's a complete technology stack that is essentially focused on providing the technology to enable devices to communicate to each other for the smart home. That's the simple answer. It was developed by a company in Copenhagen called census in I want to say 2003, the credo has been for complete interoperability to guarantee that devices with Z wave in it would work with other devices with Z wave as a platform. So it's totally focused on smart home. And as I say, it's a complete stack sub gigahertz. And again, great, great product.


    Steve Statler 03:59

    So it's using this IsSm band that is unlicensed sub gigahertz. That's kind of good propagation, I guess.


    Mitch Klein 04:11

    Yeah, it's actually the sub gigahertz is designed to run pretty well between, in and around and through building materials. So you can think in terms of like, the old Danny cams, if you will, that or way back cordless phones, you know how they would work anywhere within the house. It's because all of those devices had been sub gigahertz, as opposed to like Wi Fi, where if you have experience with Wi Fi like in your home, you always find the red dead spots Wi Fi, there's certain areas in the home where it works very well. Certain areas where it doesn't work very well. That's just laws of physics, the actual frequency itself in sub gig is longer, therefore it will travel through building materials whereas you know, 2.4 gig where Wi Fi is shorter. And it literally can get stuck, if you will, you know, in the building materials and not make it through to the other side of the home. So the Z wave is really just a from a technology perspective better suited for home in home use,


    Steve Statler 05:18

    and why why just focus on in home? Why not to go broader to industrial?


    Mitch Klein 05:23

    Yeah. And that's actually a great question, too. And that was a question I asked when I got brought on board to, to head up the Alliance. So what has made Z wave successful, is its focus razor sharp focus. So think that it was owned by a company called sigma designs that actually had acquired the technology from from census. And sigma designs a relatively small company with a small sales force. And to be able to bring it into success required razor sharp focus. And as you know, with any different products, if you take a shotgun approach to sales, and it's not necessarily the best way to build the brand, and to build your pipeline. So literally, it was a simple thing saying, You know what, let's say raise your focus, let's make sure that we can get Z wave into the service providers and security. That was the focus. And it was adopted well by the security industry, because the Z wave technology is well secured. Yes, I'll make the statement, it has never been hacked outside of a lab. Yeah, you can find flaws in it. And every time that, you know, we've had these white hat hackers, hey, you know, if you get within, you know, 30 feet, while while the product is being included into the system, and you happen to be online at exactly that 10 second moment, you can actually hack like, again, in a perfect lab environment. But it's never been hacked before. And this is why the security industry adopted Z wave, and it's something like 90 to 95% of the monitored security panels utilize the wave because of that reason. And again, that was also razor sharp focus. This is the best use case for Z wave. And it's been successful there. That doesn't mean that it's not good for other purposes. But that's really where the focus has been.


    Steve Statler 07:23

    And what are the typical devices that are being used in the home with Z wave if I decide okay, I like the sound of this what what devices am I going to find types and quantities and so forth.


    Mitch Klein 07:37

    So another very strong aspect of Z wave has been its efficiency with battery power. So because of that, it has been very popular with door lock companies. So where will you find Z wave? You'll definitely find it in security panels. Whether it's a Vivint or an ADT, Honeywell is use them actually resilio is actually the brand qual CES, which was purchased by Johnson Controls. So you'll find them in those in those security panels. Certainly find them in door locks. I saw our boys brands, you know, like Yale, August Quickset, Schlag, all of the door lock companies and a bunch that are perhaps more niche oriented, like Alfred and Caylus. Every one of them have Z wave sensors, again, because of the battery efficiency, the power efficiency, no one wants to go and replace your occupancy sensors or things that you've placed up in a wall or hard to reach areas. So the battery life on a Z wave device is pretty darn good. And thermostats. So essentially, all of the devices that would really encompass what we now would call a smart home are, you know, including Z wave in them? And how big is the Alliance? So alliance is right around 250 member companies? I mean, obviously, it fluctuates a bit. But a 250 companies that have a little over 4100 certified devices have in the marketplace. That's also by the way, another strong aspect of Z wave is that to utilize and light and use the IP license, if you will, requires the products to be certified for interoperability.


    Steve Statler 09:33

    And how's that done? How do you there are labs presumably all


    Mitch Klein 09:38

    so what happens is company wants to develop with Z wave they will they will join the Alliance. As a member of the alliance you have access to the intellectual property that's your license. You don't actually pay a per use. license you don't pay up per device license is just simply by being a member you have access to the intellectual property. You buy the chip and you will product, once you're ready to put the product into the marketplace, you then would submit it to one of the test houses for certification. You cannot commercialize a product with Z wave unless it is certified. You can utilize the Z wave IP as a member and commercialize it without certification, but you cannot refer or utilize the branding for Z wave. So in other words, there are some companies that want to do what I guess we'd call, you know, walled garden implementations where they don't want any other products in their system can still use the Z wave technology, they just cannot refer to it as Z wave, they can't call it Z wave. So no one would know.


    Steve Statler 10:47

    So I could set up Steve wave, if I wanted to, I would join I would use the IP no issues with patent infringement I just. So that's that would be an option. How much does it cost to join if I decide to get into the IoT business in the home, and I want to start using your technology.


    Mitch Klein 11:16

    So there are there are obviously different membership levels, depending on how you're going to utilize the IP. If you're going to utilize your IP and certify your product, the the manufacturer level is 10,000 per year, if you want to come in as a principal member, and get on the board, and help to drive, you know some of the technologies and it's I want to say it's sick, I believe 65,000 a year, you can come in as an affiliate member. So let's say that you're having another company OEM the product for you, and you just want to brand it. So you come in as a Brander. Once it's about 1500 per year, you could come in at that level, it's 1500, do your Steve waive, and they'll have access to the IP and just not certify the product and just call it Steve wave. But bear in mind that your license is your membership. So you just maintain your membership and you're free to continue to utilize and sell the product into the marketplace.


    Steve Statler 12:25

    And my obligations, there are just once the products are in the field that's done is just I need to be a member whilst manufacturing installing the product.


    Mitch Klein 12:34

    That's how you maintain your license. Correct.


    Steve Statler 12:37

    Very good. So where do I get the chips from? Who makes Z wave ICs.


    Mitch Klein 12:45

    So at this time, Silicon Labs is the chip supplier. There are different versions of the chip, but right now you're buying them strictly from Silicon Labs. And this is actually one of the reasons that silica labs who was up until 2020 was the sole owner of the Z wave technology and Z wave Alliance, spun it off into an independent Alliance. So as of 2020, I want to say was August of 2020. The Z wave alliance is completely independent. And as I want to say mid September, no, I'm sorry, mid November. So getting my dates wrong. As of mid November, the actual source code is now available to members to be able to contribute help to develop the source code helps to develop the software. And we also have proof of concept where the whole Z wave stack has been ported to an independent third party silicon. So we're in the process of securing additional chip companies to provide chips. As of today. It's Silicon Labs, we certainly have expectations that in 20/24, there'll be additional silicon companies providing chips.


    Steve Statler 14:06

    That's super interesting. So how does this stack up versus all of the other vendors that we hear about and you know, so you worked for Silicon Labs, but you're also leading the Alliance? Are there other permanent employees that or is it how do you start the Alliance?


    Mitch Klein 14:30

    So I am a volunteer, Executive Director of the Z wave Alliance Z wave does not pay my salary. Silica labs does. So my role at Silicon Labs I am the director of alliances strategy. So I have built a team under me at Silicon Labs, and we represent Silicon Labs in all of the alliances so that would include CSA which is ZigBee On matter, Wi Fi, Bluetooth thread, and a whole bunch of others that you may or may not have heard of, like my IoT wise. And anyway, so there's quite a few of Q technologies and the way we like to phrase it is the technology that's best fit for purpose is the best technology. That's and you indicated very early on, you say, Well, why is he always not going into industrial? Well, it may not be the right technology may not be fit for purpose for that, for that we may want to use. I don't know, we may want to use the wise technology for that, we may find that Bluetooth is the best analogy for something. So, you know, on so collabs, we we do we focus 100% of our energies on IoT, that's what we do. And we have pretty much all the technologies under our belt.


    Steve Statler 15:57

    And so that gives you a great perspective to comment on the relative position of Z wave versus ZigBee. And thread so can use maybe for people that we focus a lot on Bluetooth, but matter is in in the headlines a lot. So can you explain Can you compare and contrast with matter, Z wave and ZigBee. And


    Mitch Klein 16:28

    I could spend hours on on all of all of that. First of all, just just to recall that Z wave is all about interoperability, security certification, there's only one version of Z wave. And it's fully backwards compatible, compatible. So if you develop a product with the latest 800 series chip, you put it on to the marketplace, someone installed the Z wave dimmer or switch 20 years ago, that they will still interoperate, they will continue to work together. Okay. And that's, that's a very important piece to understand. ZigBee has, has had many different profiles, there's ZigBee, Smart Energy, there's ZigBee. Green, there's a lot of really good applications for different versions of ZigBee. But because of that ZigBee isn't necessarily interoperable xindi, you have to be careful and make sure that you've got the the appropriate version, if you will, or profile of ZigBee. Now the ZigBee standard has moved towards this more standardized or interoperable, but there's no mandate for all the devices to be interoperable. Also, that said, ZigBee operates at the 2.4 gigahertz range, Z wave operates at the sub kick sub gig is becoming more and more interesting to service providers and others because of again, as we said earlier on its ability to operate within a home or within a building 2.4 It's getting more and more crowded, because she got Wi Fi and more and more Wi Fi devices, more and more Bluetooth devices, more and more ZigBee devices, if you will. So that's one area ZigBee has other benefits. ZigBee is a really great use case for ZigBee has been in the smart bulbs, light bulbs, because it can handle the higher temperatures. And again, it's another very good reason for why ZigBee has been used in like the Philips Hue bulbs, things like that.


    Steve Statler 18:36

    So why can ZigBee operate at higher temperatures that maybe Z wave is less suited to


    Mitch Klein 18:43

    it just happens to be that the way that technology has been designed the way the chips have been designed? And that gets out of my technical capabilities to explain right?


    Steve Statler 18:52

    Very useful to know. Okay, yes. So we are going to get into the different profiles with with vb. So you need to basically be more cognizant about kind of your hub and spoken of what's talking to what what's the relationship with with matter.


    Mitch Klein 19:15

    Okay, so a couple of years ago, the ZigBee Alliance rebranded themselves as the Connect to standards Alliance, connectivity standards Alliance. We're obviously Members we're on the board were were very much supportive of that initiative. And they got together with companies like Amazon, Apple, Google SmartThings, which is Samsung and about 200, maybe 250 other companies. That all said, you know, what, why don't we all put our heads together and let's, let's really get together with a standard that everything will interoperate with each other. Because you know what, this smart home is fragmented. It It's a huge barrier to adoption. The consumers are frustrated service providers are frustrated, everyone's frustrated. So it was formed a group which they called Project chip, which was called Connected Home over IP. And the idea was we're going to use the IP protocols to enable devices to communicate with each other. And we're going to come out with with an application layer where all devices will interoperate. From a Z wave perspective, we went yay, this is great news. Because now we're not the only one saying interoperability is important. Once the standard became very close to being released, they rebranded from Project chip to matter. So this is where where that is, version one Oh, was released in November, and products are rolling out. Now as we speak. This is still based on the 2.4 gig, it's now matter is strictly an application layer, which is designed to run on top of thread, or Wi Fi can run on top of either one of them. It is an IP based protocol, which is one of the strengths of thread, and Wi Fi. And the products are all designed to be interoperable, which again, we're we're really happy about that, as a manufacturer, you're happy because you no longer have to worry about, you know, do I have to build a ZigBee version, a Z wave version, a Bluetooth version, or Wi Fi version of the same lock, I can now build one version of my lock, and have by r&d team be more innovative instead of building five versions of the same lock. Right? So this becomes a huge benefit.


    Steve Statler 21:40

    But how do you deal with the propagation challenge that Z wave solves?


    Mitch Klein 21:46

    Well, this is again, this is not what matter saw, this is one of the areas that thread addresses and that Wi Fi is addressing, which is I guess a technology or a term that's being used called MeSH, meaning that devices now can think of like cells, the way of cellular system operates where you can literally hand off, you know, the data moves from one device to another device to pass through to get to the end device. So threat is a mesh network, Wi Fi has mesh capabilities. And that's how that's how that's addressed. And it is certainly effective


    Steve Statler 22:23

    when you go around the world, because everything's talking to everything, and it's a multimode thing, and you're not just requiring line of sight.


    Mitch Klein 22:31

    Right. And the theory behind the mesh is the more devices you put in the system, the stronger the mesh becomes Z wave as a mesh system ZigBee as a mesh system threat as a mesh system. It's all about how it's implemented in terms of how well it will actually propagate within the home. Okay,


    Steve Statler 22:50

    so they all have the mesh component, and even Bluetooth has a component. Well, they


    Mitch Klein 22:55

    guess they're working on it. Yes. Correct.


    Steve Statler 23:00

    Okay, well, I refer people to the Mr. Beacon interview with the Bluetooth mesh. We'll get into into that. But isn't there a connection between matter and Bluetooth?


    Mitch Klein 23:13

    So yes, there is. Bluetooth is being utilized, essentially, just for watch the term what are the term they use, basically, for it, the Z wave term is including just to add a device to the system, my bluetooth is being used, because you got that on your phone, you wouldn't have thread on your phone, but you'd be able to include a device utilizing Bluetooth. So yes, Bluetooth plays an important role at that point, within the matter ecosystem. Correct.


    Steve Statler 23:43

    And so thread existed before? Matter? Can you just kind of package that up a little bit more? What was the history of threads and because you support threads to silicon,


    Mitch Klein 24:00

    we do. So thread was developed to be a network layer, and fiscal layer to be able for devices to send and receive and to connect over IP. And it was open in terms of you could put whatever application layer you want on top of it. Because it wasn't a full stack, like Z wave is like ZigBee is you know, which essentially runs everywhere from the file to the network all the way up to the application layer. Because it was only just a network layer. Let's just say the adaption for thread was was not as widespread as what's except as was expected.


    Steve Statler 24:43

    Okay. And that's 2.4 gigs. Technology,


    Mitch Klein 24:47

    right? That's right. Okay. So, when matter came along, Thea the whole point for matter is to be over IP thread became an ideal network layer. So that That's essentially what has kind of breathed a bit of new life into thread and made it even that much more relevant. So threads have become a very important technology for for smartphones,


    Steve Statler 25:11

    and other name brand, smart home appliances, the Google devices, thermostats and so forth, which ones are using which technology just so we can we're trying to make sense of this landscape. We've covered a lot of protocols, heads, probably spinning. So which who's using what at the moment? And where do you think it's gonna go?

    Mitch Klein 25:35

    You know, the, the whole idea was to make things simple, and I will have to acknowledge it hasn't done that. Thread is really ideal for battery devices, sensors against sensors, door locks, whatever I mean, anything that's going to be a wireless device. Thread is really perfect for that. You don't have thread on your phone. Matter is perfect for interoperability, Wi Fi is perfect for high bandwidth, you know, for streaming, if you're going to power up the device, you know, you have Wi Fi on your phone, you can have native applications that will run right off your phone with a lot of great use cases for Wi Fi as well. So if you go nearby, a thread thingy and a Wi Fi thingy, and they're both matter, guess what? Matter doesn't talk to Wi Fi. So what does that mean? Well, it means you're going to need to have a thread border router. Well, what's a border router? Border router is a thingy that lets a thread device talk to a Wi Fi device. Okay, so what do you need to know? In order to bring that in? Not much, you just needs to know you need one? Well, what is a border router? Well, hopefully, it's just your Google smart speaker, your Amazon smart speaker has it built in? As a consumer, you don't even know you needed one because you already have one automatically. At least that's the goal. So you don't have to know you need one. It just exists that at least at least that's the plan. Let's get there. Right. But okay, need to know you need one.


    Steve Statler 27:17

    And I need fuzzy wait. So I have a Yale, some Yale SmartLock. So I love them, I can use my watch to get an out of my workshop that has that and in through the back door, sir. But I had to have a little extra block gizmo. And presumably, that's the Z wave equivalent of that thing that you just


    Mitch Klein 27:40

    so yes. So for matter to be successful, you can't assume hundreds of millions of devices in the field will be replaced. And you can't assume that they're just going to go dark either. So you've got hundreds of millions of ZeeWeed devices and ZigBee devices already out in the field. What are you going to do about those? Well, in developing matter, that is, was obviously a very serious consideration. That format have to be successful, it has to be interoperable with existing technologies as well. So hooks have been built into the matter specification. And that enables bridges. So again, it does get a little confusing. Yes, it does. But once things get all wrapped up in I'd say it's probably another year, maybe two years. But you'll see bridges built into things just like you have with red border routers. So you'll have a Z wave bridge. And essentially, what is the z what is the Z wave bridge or essentially enables a Z wave device to look like a matter device so your normal microcontroller will control your Z wave device. Silicon Labs has what we're calling a unify SDK, which is designed to be a piece of software designed to go into any hub any router. And that will enable Z wave initially, and it's already ready in alpha version now, it enables Z wave and ZigBee devices to interoperate with matter, so that that solution, it was acknowledged from day one that it was necessary in order to in order to really drive adoption of the smart home.


    Steve Statler 29:28

    Excellent. Well, I think you've got us to a point where we can sound like we know what we're talking about, we can at least go through some of the key strengths of those protocols. I want to just take a few minutes, five minutes and just talk a bit about Silicon Labs. As we're in the industry and we're trying to figure out these different players and where they sit. What's what's the history of Silicon Labs and where is the where is the focus you make chips in a lot of IoT devices. What's the what's the story there?


    Mitch Klein 30:07

    Yeah, I won't bore you will have a long history. It Company was formed and headquarters are in Austin, Texas. Silicon Labs want to say, in July of 2021, I believe, spun off roughly almost half the company. So we sold off our automotive and industrial businesses and only kept IoT. That's it, we are 100% IoT. So we are the only IoT focused company, we build wireless and some, you know, obviously MCU based chips that are for the AI, industrial, Smart City, commercial, smart home, portable, you know, will make devices for things like continuous glucose monitors smartwatches, as well as, of course, all the smart home devices. That to Silicon Labs is 100%, focused on IoT. And we've got offices all around the world. And we're, I want to say in 2022, we essentially have exceeded exceeded the revenue that we had pre the vest divestiture doing pretty well.


    Steve Statler 31:33

    Focus certainly helps.


    Mitch Klein 31:35

    It's great. It does. And again, it's a public company. So I haven't released any info that you couldn't find yourself. SLA D, I believe is the, the NASDAQ.


    Steve Statler 31:46

    Well, Mitch, thanks for guiding us through all of this. I've really enjoyed that. And you've got some very interesting musical instruments behind you. Yeah. We have a traditional warm up question, which is three favorite songs. I imagine you've got some songs in your head, but maybe too many.


    Mitch Klein 32:04

    Yeah, the songs are constantly changing. It's like, oh, what's your favorite song? It's like, well, you mean today, right? Yes. I think, I think to say, what my favorite songs of all time are that? I could not answer that question. I really,


    Steve Statler 32:19

    I think the question is really designed as a way of getting to know the person. So it's actually less about what the best song in the world is. But three songs that means something to you based on parts of your life, a better way of framing it.


    Mitch Klein 32:33

    Yeah. And I think I can, I can probably go go with that. But what's what's very interesting is as a, I think of myself as a musician, I'm not a professional, but even way back in high school, I would write arrangements. So to me, it was always about the music. And the lyrics was just another instrument. So to me, I was not really tied in to the poetic aspects of the lyrics, and I was always driven by the arrangements and the music and so some songs that many people would love would have no interest to me, because the music was boring. And and so to me, someone like like, like a Randy Newman is just amazing, because his arrangements are just so creative. Anything by Steely Dan just is just a miracle because the music is incredible. The lyrics are mysterious, of course. So with that in mind, I can tell you that lately the music that has always driven me Homeward Bound comes to mind is one of my favorites because I travel a lot. And Simon and Garfunkel I mean, again, you think of them as as a folk duo, and they are, but they're really storytellers. And, again, so for someone that's not into lyrics, I love their lyrics, right? Because they tell great stories, but the arrangements are wonderful. And homeward bound. hits a note because as much as I travel, I love coming home. I can't wait to come home. And


    Steve Statler 34:17

    I love Simon so in live one, you're an aficionado than have you ever seen one trick pony? His movie? It's an album and it's also


    Mitch Klein 34:29

    long ago. Yeah.


    Steve Statler 34:30

    What both of them


    Mitch Klein 34:31

    can even take that up a level and long ago, he had a musical on Broadway. I think it was called caveman or something like that. And my wife and I, my sister and her husband went to that and it turned out it was actually a New Year's Eve at the marquis theatre. And, of course when we got out we didn't realize we were right there in the middle of Times Square but actually the musical was terrible. It had like a one week run it was done but anyway, but I crabs,


    Steve Statler 35:01

    that's a bit of history that actually doesn't make many duds and


    Mitch Klein 35:06

    now is awesome. Another one that I've been playing in a band now kind of an interest industry band where we basically Chris exchange song sets, we learn our parts, we practice ones when we get together and then we play an industry event. And one that really has been driving home for me is a song called let it roll, which is by little feet another band that I am a big fan of because little fetal also does this wonderful work with different instruments and wonderful arrangements and, and let it roll is really up tempo, upbeat, high energy song positive, and some great brass in it. And wonderful baseline and I'm a bass player. So I kind of, you know, like the fact that the bass lines up with the brass and everything. So that's something too, that takes my mind off of all the stresses from work, and just gets me really locked in on the music, which is really kind of fun. Really cool. And then again, anything where Steely Dan, and you can pick it up just about anything and even some of the Donald fake Han Solo stuff, or Walter Becker solo stuff. But what's also been hitting a nerve lately, again, with all of this craziness going on with mass shootings and stuff like that. They have this song called with a gun off a Pretzel Logic album, which is one of my favorite albums of all time. It's called with a gun, and it's just one line in there. That just rings a bell and it's it's, if I remember correctly, it's with a gun, you will be what you are just the same. And to me, that's just really kind of hits up points. Like you know, the gun doesn't make you anything doesn't make you bigger, doesn't make you stronger doesn't solve your problems, you're still going to be who you are. And there's so much of that going on in the news. And you can apply that anywhere. And so anyway, right now, I guess those are the three that are top of mind as we get in six months, three more


    Steve Statler 37:11

    marvelous choices. I love Steven. Love that album cover on Pretzel Logic was very good. Captures New York in a certain time


    Mitch Klein 37:21

    where it grew up. That's right.


    Steve Statler 37:24

    Awesome. Well, Mitch, thanks so much for ending this with that personal touch. I really enjoyed listening to your account of those things.


    Mitch Klein 37:35

    Thank you, Steve. It's a really pleasure to be here. And I'm hoping to get a lot smarter about what you guys are working on with ambient IoT.


    Steve Statler 37:42

    Excellent. Really appreciate it. So that was Mitch, great guy really enjoyed the conversation on the inside of a lot of the happenings that are driving standards that make IoT possible. Hope you found it interesting. And thanks for listening to the end. Do help us by giving us feedback. Review us tell your friends and most important tune in next time. We appreciate your time with us. All the best